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BUGS Swarming our position! Request suppressing fire

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Muttie

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Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:42 pm

Post Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:29 pm

Re: BUGS Swarming our position! Request suppressing fire

A few more minor points:

It's really silly banging on about karma, but the four gecko hunts with the tribe seem to give about 145 karma (36+36+48+15+10) (that's: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, report back to Gurgan). Is this correct?
I feel a bit awkward bringing this up repeatedly as there very well may be a system I'm simply not fully comprehending. I'm just baffled. (I mean talking Valery in Corath into suicide is only -30 karma? Blackmailing Alexa is -100. But going hunting makes up for both of it. That does seem off to me.)
I only tested this with one character (female, CH8) and there could be something like a CH multiplier, but still...
Killing a tribal-hunter is -10 karma (during the second hunt), which means if I kill two of them and then run off the map I end up with +16 karma when reporting back to Gurgan. That can't be right.
Personally I wouldn't award any karma for gecko hunting (the first three hunts), or at least not that much, but perhaps only 3+3+4+15+10).

Side note: I suspected that this could have been a concept to prevent the player from not caring about the hunters (and letting them die) (like 12 karma per surviving hunter) but it doesn't seem to be the case. However, as a result I had the idea of having the number of Gecko Pelts regulate it. Like 1 golden gecko pelt per surviving hunter, instead of a fixed amount. This would mean more pelts for the first and second hunt, unless it's “number of hunter minus one” for hunt one and two. This would set an incentive to care about the hunters and to protect them. May need a comment by Gurgan to make the player aware of it like: “But, (alas/by our ancestors), few hunters return, and the (yield?) was poor, I can only give you (number) pelts.”
I would include this incentive to protect the hunters. But it would remove the freedom to kill two of them at the end of each hunt. Or too casually stand back and let them take the damage, until only one is still alive. At which point one has to help. I don't think there is ever any reason to let a hunt fail on purpose? It doesn't allow to work for Paul, and only when the attack on the hospital is about to start has one the option to switch sides (talking to Falber). So, the incentive to protect the hunters (i.e. to continue hunting) is already there. Varying the number of pelts would only strengthen it, I think. And I don't think it would become too tough, either.

When killing doctor Moore, and then leaving before looting his body, and then not helping Alexa with her attack, causes Moore's 13 caps to be covered by the blood stain and they can't be picked up. (http://www.filedropper.com/slot251moore). Not a big deal, but for convenience a solution like with Vex's head (like: don't remove Moore's body until the player entered and left South Side once more), or transferring Moore's inventory to the desk when he dies (if that is possible) could be considered. Mostly for those that are bothered by such inaccessible items.
It is also possible to administer the poison, wait till he dies, and then loot the body, as the South Side doesn't seem to set to “hostile” before leaving the map. But I don't think this is as intended (i.e. the player is supposed to leave in a hurry, not to wait around for Moore to drop dead, and then to loot his body, although it's possible).
If participating in the fight/helping Alexa, and not looting the bodies, and then return later, all the items not yet picked up are under blood stains, too. However in that scenario there is the option to loot the bodies, right after the fight, and before causing them to disappear by leaving the map. (Note: Interestingly enough, in this case (when helping/fighting with Alexa) Moore's body is not removed. That only happens when staying back at Alexa's place, in which case all of Julian's men are replaced by blood stains (without items), including doctor Moore's (with items).)

In the save below (Slot252) I've killed Alexa shortly before she attempts to kill George (which doesn't save him, btw. I assume his sickness kills him in that case). However, I still get free drinks despite Alexa being dead. Which, seems a bit weird? Or am I considered a friend of the whole town now? Which does not entirely add up, as I don't become one by wiping out both gangs (correct?). At least, it does not trigger when I kill Alexa before collecting the XP (for the fight against Julian) (e.g. when I kill Alexa before ending combat).
Perhaps set the condition for free drinks in the North Side bar to “helped Alexa in fight & received XP for it” or “when Julian & Alexa are both dead”. The last may need a dialogue from the bartender. “You know what, buddy, after all you've did for this Rat Hole, I'll let you drink for free. What'd ya say to that?” “Thanks, pal” “What shall it be then” etc.
This isn't necessary, but it would smooth it a little.

After sending Katrin to purchase drugs, I managed to get her reappear before the hour is over. So she walks around as a ghost (floater) but I can't talk to her or see her. This save (http://www.filedropper.com/slot252katrininvisible), shows her as invisible (wait up to 10 seconds for her floater to appear). And from this save (http://www.filedropper.com/slot253katrintrigger) it can be reproduced by: talking to her, give her 10 caps, then send her shopping, leave to the world map (or go to South Side) and immediately re-enter North Side. She should be wandering around as a ghost then, only spawning floaters from time to time (and I thought it's her taking the drugs...).

Also when killing Alexa and waiting an hour, Katrin switches between (“all is lost, Alexa's dead”) and tripping (her happy drug floaters) (which is oddly funny sometimes). This is not a big deal. But shouldn't the realization of Alexa's death set in when she's off the drugs again, rather than switching back and forth? (this can be checked with slot252 (wait for an hour), or 254 (set her up, kill Alexa, then check)). However, it can work either way as drugs can cause irrational behaviour.

And another point: When I send Katrin shopping, and then kill Alexa before collecting my stuff, her “lamenting” also blocks the option to get the items off her. I think it can be argued if this is correct. She could have spend all the caps and drugs once she heard the news of Alexa's death (purchase is gone), or she could stay under drugs, hand over the purchase, and when the drugs wear off, realize what happened and start the (Alexa is dead) floater. This is a game-design decision (which falls in the point above, i.e. at which point should Katrin realize that Alexa is dead).
(http://www.filedropper.com/slot254katrinpurchase) In this save Katrin has already purchased the 2 Stimpaks. You can now either talk to her (and pick them up), or talk to Alexa first, have her commit suicide, and then check that Katrin becomes unresponsive (Stimpaks/300 caps are gone). (Note: killing her or stealing doesn't work either, the Stimpaks are not in her inventory).

http://www.filedropper.com/slot255only1500
This is an odd one. It's right after the battle has ended. When I now approach Alexa, I get 2000 XP. If I run off the map, and talk to her in her store I only get 1500 XP. Are those 500 XP for triggering her “visit” to George? Or are the 2000 XP the error, as Julian's last quest only gives 1500 XP?

And I thought about the 5mm AP ammo which stops working against a high DT, like power armour.
Here is a zipped open office document in which I've made some calculations: http://www.filedropper.com/apammo.
It also includes the numbers for a special rule idea for AP ammo which may work (at least for 5mm): “AP ammo treats any DT greater than 8 as 8”. (like there is only so much AP hits an armour's DT can absorb). This is not a perfect solution but from a game-design point of view a special rule for AP ammo has less impact than changing weapon damages or DT of armours (and the 5mm ammo itself is actually fine). This won't help .44 FMJ or 10mm AP which are both not useful (but I've added two examples of what happens when changing their ammo's DR mod). But that's another issue (and not that pressing as both ammo types are early game mostly).
Another note: if AP ammo is rare, it doesn't have to be balanced, other than by the question “how much damage is it suppose to deal?”, i.e. rarity can balance, too, and consequently you could just overpower AP ammo. Like giving it “2/1”.
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NovaRain

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Post Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:00 am

Re: BUGS Swarming our position! Request suppressing fire

Muttie wrote:And I thought about the 5mm AP ammo which stops working against a high DT, like power armour.
Here is a zipped open office document in which I've made some calculations: http://www.filedropper.com/apammo.
It also includes the numbers for a special rule idea for AP ammo which may work (at least for 5mm): “AP ammo treats any DT greater than 8 as 8”. (like there is only so much AP hits an armour's DT can absorb). This is not a perfect solution but from a game-design point of view a special rule for AP ammo has less impact than changing weapon damages or DT of armours (and the 5mm ammo itself is actually fine). This won't help .44 FMJ or 10mm AP which are both not useful (but I've added two examples of what happens when changing their ammo's DR mod). But that's another issue (and not that pressing as both ammo types are early game mostly).
Another note: if AP ammo is rare, it doesn't have to be balanced, other than by the question “how much damage is it suppose to deal?”, i.e. rarity can balance, too, and consequently you could just overpower AP ammo. Like giving it “2/1”.

The default damage calculation in FO2 is flawed, and setting AP ammo's damage mod to 1/1 (what Resurrection did) only helps a bit IMO.
There are at least three different major approaches trying to address the problem:
1. Magnus' F2WR, which overhauls the whole ammo and armor attributes using default formula.
2. Haenlomal's YAAM, which changes ammo's DR mod to DT mod and has an over-penetration calculation (DR -10% for each point of DT over-penetration).
3. Glovz's damage calculation change, which changes X and Y values of damage mod to DR/DT divisors.

Of course, one can make new damage formula much more easily now with sfall hook script, instead of writing tons of ASM like YAAM and Glovz's.
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Muttie

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Post Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:48 pm

Re: BUGS Swarming our position! Request suppressing fire

NovaRain wrote:The default damage calculation in FO2 is flawed, and setting AP ammo's damage mod to 1/1 (what Resurrection did) only helps a bit IMO.There are at least three different major approaches trying to address the problem:

I agree. But I had the slight Impression that the Resurrection Team wanted to use their own version. And when looking at it, it occured to me that it almost can be made to work with a few more tweaks. But, yes, the actual problem is that the original concept is flawed. And perhaps they'll have to overhaul it eventually. But I also think that Resurrection can still get away with it without having to rewrite the whole thing.

Muttie wrote:After solving the protection money quest (by stealing the money) and the attack on Alexa (without murder quest), I can still talk to the local bartender, and ask for a drink (the overpriced option has been already triggered), but the dialogue won't offer me the option to actually buy one (which I normally can, even after realizing it's overpriced or after killing Alexa. (http://www.filedropper.com/slot244barpurchase). The only thing preventing a purchase, as far as I know, should be when I got the protection money through force (ST or speech), in which case he wouldn't talk to me again).

Another possibility (and correct me if I'm wrong) could be that this save has no money :roll:. No wonder I couldn't purchase anything :oops:. Still, it could add a “Come back when you can pay, punk.” when trying to purchase without money.


And: http://www.filedropper.com/slot256questwipe. When talking to Julian, to end the last of his quests, the quest “get the protection money...” disappears from the status list. This also happens when the murder quest is active, solved and when getting the protection money through strength (http://www.filedropper.com/slot257questwipe2), (i.e. at first I thought this is an indicator if I can return to the bar or not, but no).

Then there is a weird dialogue bug/connection in the “Big O” stargate special encounter. In reply to O'Neall's comment that he is an explorer, one can say: “Wow, that's really a cool occupation, isn't it! You get to see weird stuff, meet new people...” to which he replies “If you think that it's awesome, then you're either a lunatic or you have never killed anybody.”
That feels a bit abrupt as if the player's comment should include something about fighting, that O'Neall reacts to. Like: “Wow, that's really a cool occupation, isn't it! You get to see weird stuff, meet new people...excitement, adventure...sounds awesome.”
Otherwise the connection from Explorer to meeting new people to killing them is technically there but also a bit sudden and not entirely logical to be honest. I've hardly seen Stargate though, so I can't say how “logical” that actually is. But “normally” exploration should not “always” result in killing people.
However, you can also make it even more extreme and turn it into a joke. And O'Neall could reply: “If you think that it's awesome, then you're either a lunatic or you have never faced the fact that each time we explore the (universe?/and bring peace to it?/trying to communicate?) we end up killing someone. (Have you (ever) thought about that? Or) Perhaps you just don't care!”). However, I really don't know Stargate well enough and can't tell if that would be an accurate joke or not.
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Muttie

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Post Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:59 pm

Re: BUGS Swarming our position! Request suppressing fire

Another “distance not triggering combat” bug, but this one is problematic. (http://www.filedropper.com/slot258gabrielseditbar). When talking to the bartender I get three options: pay 1000, sacrifice/fight Gabriel or defend him (the “try and I'll beat you up” option). The problematic one is the defend option as it doesn't trigger combat. It just ends the dialogue and nothing happens. I can talk to the bartender again, buy services, leave the map, return, talk to Kevin etc. and nothing happens. But the moment I step behind the counter, combat starts. (The usual scenario of combat requiring to get close to a character). However in this case it allows to avoid the Gabriel situation (pay or fight) completely, by never stepping behind the counter. Which is not a big sacrifice, as one has no reason (as far as I know) to go there (once looted), (i.e. in all other scenarios, so far, one always had a reason to get closer to the character or a guard and eventually trigger combat, but not this time). Consequently, it becomes an exploit, allowing to skip the Gabriel/Sedit bar scenario completely. Perhaps the “defend” option needs to set another person in the bar hostile (like a cop next to the door, or dialogue with the bartender etc.).
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Muttie

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Post Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:08 am

Re: BUGS Swarming our position! Request suppressing fire

Found an error message in the dialogue with Johny (Crimson Caravan/Sedit). See the screenshot. (http://www.filedropper.com/johnydialouge). It's about him joining a caravan and the error message should be something like a “return to previous menu” option.

And during the first quest (the meeting for Frederyk). Kevin's dialogue says he'll pay 150 caps, but when I reported back to him I received 200 caps. Did I get a bonus, is it an order thing or is the text a typo? I've tested it again with a different character (same CH though?) and assume that it's a typo. May check from http://www.filedropper.com/slot266kevincaps.

During the Rodriguez quest to face the raiders, I did get 35 points of karma (5 per kill), which put me below -50 and consequently Gabriel left me after that fight. This may need looking into as the Rodriguez quest line working against Gabriel is not optimal. And this is not similar to the first quest were I can solve it peacefully (positive karma) or kill the drunk (negative karma), as in the showdown with the raiders, there is no choice, only combat, (not even staying in the back does work, as it seems I get the points no matter who kills the raiders). I think it may be better if that fight would be karma neutral (i.e. the quest and killing those raiders). Especially as it's not easy to get the karma down to -50, other than skipping New Hope quests. I had to come up with a strategy (graves, ripping up letter etc.) to balance the karma gain from New Hope (I could have gotten more out of the necklace quest perhaps, but, still, it is a bit of a squeeze to pick up Gabriel quickly, and if then going directly in the Rodriguez quest (which can make sense) and running into a chunk of 35 points can be a game stopper. This Karma is also not necessary if accompanied by Lystra (e.g. before that quest one has an option and after it she refuses to help anyway). So I would suggest to consider making these Raiders Karma neutral (i.e. it's dealings among gangsters, and killing gangsters for gangsters, doesn't have to be a good deed).
Also if this quest gives +35 Karma, there is basically not much quest line choice in Sedit other than going with Nicol (I think?). Everything else is positive for the most part. EDIT: Well, Lost Town has several negative Options, but still...

The (male) dialogue with Rene at Falcon's Flight doesn't adjust by having or not having a Talisman. In both cases it says [show it to him]. Not a big deal but in other cases (female) there was a variation from “show” to “describe”, which was a nice touch.

There is also a slight dialogue bug with Lucy (http://www.filedropper.com/slot259lucybug). I had sex with her, returned via rope, (that's where the save is). Use waiting for love, then scroll the screen away from her room, return to it (to get her to spawn), then talk to her. Her dialogue is the one after getting the necklace from her but in this save the quest hasn't been activated yet. I continued playing and the necklace quest works without issues from this save. And I think this scenario only triggers the wrong dialogue. I believe she should say “What are you doing here? You shouldn't be here, leave.” which seems to be here response when appearing in her room uninvited after having started an affair with her. And as she does in this scenario, too, if talking to her a second time.
Btw, the dialogue line could be adjusted to “What are you doing here? Meet me in the bar if you must.” Especially when the affair can be continued (kissing her good-bye). However, I'm not sure yet how quickly she returns to the bar (could be mentioned “I'll be there (in a few days/next evening/a week?), just give me some time.”), and there seem to be scenarios that cancel her visits (necklace stolen, son kidnapped (& not returned yet) and husband killed?). Perhaps alter her response based on these events.“What are you doing here? You shouldn't be here, leave.” if there is no getting together again/won't visit the bar at the moment and “What are you doing here? You really shouldn't. Meet me in the bar, if you must. I'll be there, just give me some time.” if still available.

I also start to understand the mod better. I said previously that not having money should give a comment when attempting to purchase in the Rat Hole bar. The mod doesn't do that throughout, and I'm not sure why? (Avoiding a bug?) I do understand that a bribe option (psycho for John) shouldn't be offered when the player has no Psycho in inventory (to avoid spoilers) but known traders/bartenders should have a “you have no money” comment and healers a “you're not hurt” comment (companions may only be offered when actually hurt, which makes sense, but doing the same with the player-character can be confusing (for example, I've reported it as a bug erroneously) or (I thought doctor Moore won't treat me any more for some reason). Unless there is a good reason, this could be changed.

I've reported that Lystra doesn't react to the quest to kill one of William's women. If continuing the quest line, she then also doesn't object to the entire kidnapping quest (as she should). And it really needs to be implemented as it is possible to pick her up later, leave her behind when taking care of William's women, then pick her up again etc. And she should not go along with the whole kidnapping. She basically needs to trigger to almost every deed during that quest (accepting the job by Vex (warning), taking the boy (hostile), killing the nanny (leave), accepting to deliver the boy's ear (hostile), and the botched exchange (hostile).)
Lystra also objects to killing the ghouls, but does participate in the fight. Perhaps set her to hostile when starting to shot at the Falcon's Flight ghouls (“I won't let you hurt innocent people!”) as if they were imperial city dwellers (i.e. if she objects to the quest she should also object to the fight.) Otherwise it's a bit too simple to avoid her objections (e.g. it is enough to remove her from the party before reporting back to Sanchez, take the quest, get her back into the group, then kill the ghouls with her help. Which may not be as intended.)


Companion kills don't trigger hostility
I have found a few weird situations, apparently caused by the mod not registering companion kills and/or hits that missed or did no damage as acts that trigger “town hostility” (i.e. an entire place (like Sedit) turning hostile):
(Edit: actually it's a general FO2 issue, e.g. it works in the 2.3.3 RP Mod, too)

First there is (http://www.filedropper.com/slot260nicolefine) in which I've started combat by missing, and then my companions killed all of Nicol's men in the basement before spawning her. Doing it this way no one seems to mind, including Nicol. This is the safe from which I've created it (http://www.filedropper.com/slot261nicolesetup). And I think the important aspect is to start combat without landing a hit and let the companions do all the killing. Also killing Nicol doesn't seem to bother anyone (Kevin, Keri etc.), if done the same way (i.e. start combat by missing). If I do hit her they all turn hostile. (May test from Slot260, but you may need to heal Gabriel first.) From this save I can also start combat by missing her, have Gabriel get killed (combat ends) and then talk to Nicol who says “have you got the money” and my reply is basically “I'm working on it.” :)
I'm not sure how much of a problem this is but this “town hostility” scenario brought up a few points.
For example, perhaps Nicol needs to spawn the moment combat starts in the basement (which she doesn't, it was still the same “enter her room” scenario & dialogue text). Or any fight in the basement needs to trigger Sedit hostility which seems to cancel her spawn.
I was also missing a comment by Kevin when Nicol is dead to hint why no one cares (“You took care of her? Well, don't expect any thanks from me. Just go.” (although this scenario may be a bug and should never occur) and, with the Tyler quest active, “You took care of her? Well, things start to look up now. Give my best to Tyler.”, as in that case Kevin is actually not reacting to her death either :(.
I have also tested how killing Nicol prematurely, effects the Tyler Morrow quest and it actually bugs out, i.e. it can't be finished, as Nicol doesn't register as dead (http://www.filedropper.com/slot265nicolerror). Not sure if you want to prevent the complete basement fight (Kevin/Sedit become hostile when Nicol is killed by companions) or add a line when being given the Tyler quest of “Haven't you heard, she's already gone.” which may then finish the quest or send one to Kevin one more time to settle the deal (and story closure) “Tell Tyler I'm behind him.”, then go back and finish the quest.
Anyway,
You may consider to do something about town hostility when the player-character misses an attack, does no damage or when a companion scores a kill.
At first I thought this isn't that big of a deal but then I thought of a “friendly/pacifist” character who never or rarely fights (which is actually possible if accompanied by Gabriel & Keri). (The fight vs Nicol is not a sure fire thing, but it's possible, and can even be tweaked with combat settings and/or feeding them stimpaks, i.e. playing a medic). Such a character may trigger such scenarios rather regularly (i.e. start a fight by missing and then let the companions do all the work), and perhaps, for such a player-character, companion kills need to trigger town hostility.
I've tested it once more in AQ and it behaved the same. (A missed hit, Keri killed Catherine and after ending combat I could ask Sophie how she feels (...I'm so evil...). If I did hit Catherine, AQ became hostile towards me and citizens would engage in combat on sight.
Interestingly this “hostility triggered by others” seems to work during the Falcon's Flight fight. During which Little Hub turns hostile towards me when a companion (or a Little Hub citizen) kills one of the cops, even if I myself never hit or killed one. (which is another problem actually). But this (“death of a cop” triggers town hostility) could be a possible solution. (May cause problems of it own, though.)

I've messed around a bit and another scenario is killing Mrs. Stapleton. I can get her to start combat (during the first encounter) and then do nothing but have Keri (etc.) burst her down (again no town hostility as I don't do damage). This does draw Little Hub into combat and it seems impossible to end combat before more shots are fired (there may be an option though, see next paragraph). But the death of a companion ends combat as usual, and as I didn't hit or kill anyone (personally), it doesn't trigger any permanent hostility (by Keri or Little Hub) towards me. This trick would allow to trade Mutt for 20 books. Which could actually be worth it... (no restock though).

The following is another scenario, similar to that one of Mrs. Stapleton, but here I've managed to set it up in a way that allows to end combat. http://www.filedropper.com/slot262clarkfigth. In this save all companions are in position and shouldn't be moved (especially Mutt). Provoke Clark into attacking through dialogue (1/1/1/1/2), then walk up to him (between Gabriel & Keri) and trigger him to attack. This way Mutt can't reach Clark and stays in place (blocking the only path). If you now only press space repeatedly, and never hit Clark, no one will become hostile as usual (including Keri), but Gabriel and Keri will beat Clark to death (uii, a sawed off shotgun). Normally this should pull the entire map into combat (as with Mrs. Stapleton) but in this case I can end combat immediately afterwards. Apparently as Mutt blocks the path. If Mutt moves/the path opens, ending combat on this map seems to become rather difficult/impossible (i.e. it pulls all cops and guards on the map relentlessly). I thought this is noteworthy as getting out of combat seems to be the real trick if wanting to exploit this failure to register “town hostility”. As “not triggering town hostility” does not prevent the town from attacking me as long as combat is on.

Another option to end combat is probably to run off the map, but one has to make it without taking too many shots (can be tricky). In other cases it seems to work to create enough of a distance (I think that worked in AQ).
Btw AQ, Lystra can also be duped into fighting the people in Imperial City this way (i.e. start combat by missing). Interestingly, though is that Lystra goes immediately hostile when I'm in the main building in front of advisor Elisa and hold a gun in an active slot. To me this suggests again that there are ways to cause hostility towards an inactive player.
Anyway, I'm not sure how far one can push this (wipe parts of towns without consequence), and it may not be that big deal of a deal as leaving combat can be tricky (fighting in a basement helps), then again a “medic character” may encounter a lot of strange behaviour (especially when triggering combat through dialogue. “It was them! [points finger at companions]”). Not sure, but if there's a simple solution (like during the Falcon's Flight scenario, when the death of a cop triggers town hostility, even if one was never personally involved), it could be fixed, but I would not fix it if it requires to rip too much apart, or may create too many follow up problems (i.e. the Falcon's Flight fight has issues of its own. Like becoming responsible for the cop's death without having fired a single shot “I'm a patsy! They set me up. I shot the ghouls, but I didn't shoot no deputy!” which may be awkward in other fights (dead quarter hospital etc.). Actually it would be enough if companion kills could count (?). Anyway, you know better what is and what isn't possible.

Messing around with the Clark save (slot262) I managed to get a citizen standing in the door, without an option to push him. http://www.filedropper.com/slot267blocked. Funny, I never realized that the push option of NPCs seems to come and go. The mobile ones have a push option when one is close to them (distance toggles it on/off apparently), but some are “stationary” and can't be pushed (like Loiz), not even after they fled from a fight (as in this save). Was never a problem before, though, and this save is rather a mess (product of bugging out the game on purpose).


And a few observations on the Falcon's Flight fight.
This is more feedback than a bug report. Originally I did struggle with this fight, but eventually I've figured it out. The following is more an account of things that proved difficult to find a solution for.
When I started the fight, the cops would come in. Keri will help to kill the ghouls (i.e. she's fine with it). And no one (but the cops in combat armour) turns hostile. But when a cop is killed for any reason then Keri and the people of Little Hub will turn hostile towards me. This is rather odd, as Keri will attack the cops, but once she killed one, she turns against me (even if I never hit or killed one). This was rather confusing in the beginning. In one case I also saw her “dickhead” floater, she then would do nothing, but following me, and once I've ended combat she would start fighting me (this also happened twice in the basement fight against Nicol's men, i.e. sometimes her hostility won't trigger until the end of combat). In the same fight it also happened that the caravan people attacked the cops, and once the cops were dead (and I've ended combat) they would start attacking me.
I even saw people from Little Hub attack the Ghouls once (the patron in the hotel). I'm not entirely sure why this happened (I was not able to reproduce it yet). Little Hub citizens attacking cops occurs fairly regularly though. It only needs a cop to hit a Sedit citizen (and the Assault Rifle sprays a lot). (Note, citizens includes the “cop in metal armour” who would then also attack the “cops in combat armour” once triggered).
Not being allowed to kill a cop and doing this fight the hard way seems very difficult when having companions (who attack cops), or when a stray cop bullet hits a citizen and draws them into combat, as any of them (companion or citizens) killing a cop seems to trigger that “cop has been killed” flag, no matter if I personally ever fired a shot at them.
I'm aware of the Tyler Morrow option. And after a few attempts I also came up with a strategy that worked consistently. (Start in the kitchen which seems far enough not to pull the cops (mind companions), end combat, let Ivet come on her own, kill her, set companions to stay close, take psycho and zigzag around the buildings while running east and off the map (best seems to go down the alley between book store and hotel, and then straight off the map (perhaps through the SE ruins if in need of cover). This way they get not as many shots and there seems to be little risk that the cops hit a citizen, except for a boy in the alley.) (It may work too, to sneak out of the hotel, but my sneak wasn't up to it.) However, doing it the hard way (with guns blazing), seemed rather difficult at first if wanting to avoid the “cop killed” flag.
I also tried sleeping (hiding) on the first floor after killing the ghouls silently, but the cops wouldn't disappear, not even after a week.
A few points that could be contemplated:
First, the behaviour by Keri, e.g. her killing a cop and then blaming me for it (cheers, keri). And a citizen killing a cop and blaming me for it. This is probably the most difficult problem as I had to develop specific strategies to actively prevent this from happening. It's possible, but before realizing that I can kill the ghouls without triggering the cops, it's a bit touch & go (i.e. they would come inside, when I still had to fight the ghouls, join the fight and at that point I have no control over my companions' behaviour, and they may end up killing a cop, instead a ghoul). Also the possibility that citizens can kill a cop does not seem entirely fair (and needs to be calculate into one's escape path). Eventually it's manageable, but there was some frustration up to that point.
Another problem is Keri seems to be hostile when I enter any Sedit map during the 3 months (as Sedit is hostile) (e.g. don't flee to Downtown!). And it seems, that entering Sedit too early cancels the 3 month option altogether. Not a big deal though, but it may catch people unaware. Perhaps Sanchez could mention that “If you return any time before those 3 months (we can't/nothing can) help you any more, comprendo.”
Last, after I saw this oddity once that a citizen of Little Hub attacked the ghouls I thought this could actually become a standard scenario. All people in Little Hub (Demetre) hate mutants and ghouls. And the option to cause a racist outburst in which the people of Little Hub start to attack the ghouls, and the cops protecting them, could be fascinating (and scary). This could be triggered automatically when the cops in combat armour join the fight. Once they do, the animosity of the inhabitants (caravan and citizens) towards ghouls comes forth, and they attack. They may start to spawn some ghoul-hate floaters and attack the cops “for protecting them”. This could be an interesting scenario, but also simplify the whole “who attacks who” scenario (all vs cops). And it could simplify the 3 months scenario by changing it to “If the place was guarded, it is always 3 months, no matter how many cops and ghouls got killed.” I think this could make sense if fighting the cops would always come with an angry mob. One may have incited the outburst, and the police may look for the agitator for 3 months but after that time, one has to face that the ghouls are dead, Demetre and citizens were involved in it, and eventually the matter is put to rest quietly. It was just a dark chapter of Sedit no one talks about. And there is no point in stirring things up again. Despite dead officers. Not sure if this is much better. It would always kill all the cops (loot) and probably cancel the escape scenario (unless it can remain as a specific sneak option, silent kill in the kitchen then sneak out), but it could simplify some of the difficulties one faces (can't kill cops, needs to make sure cops aren't killed, killing ghouls without engaging cops, companion behaviour). However, I'm not an expert and I can't claim to understand the full scope of my idea, and I suspect that there is more to the scenario than I'm aware of. P.S. Could also be an option after talking to Demetre “What do you think about them damn, ghouls?”.
If you want to test:
http://www.filedropper.com/slot263ghoulfight
http://www.filedropper.com/slot264ghoulfightquest (the quest is active in this save)
Last edited by Muttie on Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Daemon

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Post Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:01 pm

Re: BUGS Swarming our position! Request suppressing fire

Muttie: Thanks for another reports. Even if I don't respond (in the last weeks it was because I was sick) I still making notes of relevant problems in order to fix them in future.
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Muttie

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Post Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:04 pm

Re: BUGS Swarming our position! Request suppressing fire

Daemon wrote:Muttie: Thanks for another reports. Even if I don't respond (in the last weeks it was because I was sick) I still making notes of relevant problems in order to fix them in future.

It's OK. At this point it has become an automatism, and I'll post until I run out of reports or someone tells me to stop. Hope you got better.


Question

How do I steal the necklace when Lucy is at home? I tried AG10 (drugs) and sneak 97% but she spots me each and every time I try to open the wall-safe. Is there any other way?
Stealing the necklace in the bar is not difficult (or to crack the safe when she is gone). But when I kidnap David and then get the necklace quest, Nicol tells me that Lucy won't leave the villa any more (and as the quest ends in tears, that never changes again). And I see no chance to get to the wall safe, when she is in the room, without her detecting me.
I tried talking to people to lure her out, waited at the villa in case she goes to bed etc. but there seems to be no other option. What am I missing?
Note: If it's only about sneak I would like to add that cracking the wall-safe doesn't need to be difficult, I think. It is basically XP only, as the character spends (normally) 1000 caps to gain 1000 caps (reward). Compared to the bar option (which seems very easy) this is mostly just a fail-safe. And sneak of about 25% should be sufficient (when Lucy is in the room). (at least as far as I see it(?))

And,
what influences the items traders are offering? I'm thinking of items like the Tragic cards (Mrs. Stapleton), First Aid Book (Alexa, father Malcolm), Geiger counter (Salem) etc. Is it a matter of time (i.e. they have two set of trade items they switch around each restock?), randomness, and/or the character's level and/or stats? Or a mixture of it?


Observations/Suggestions/Bugs

There is an error in Marvin's dialogue. http://www.filedropper.com/marvinsdialogue. Which seems to come up on all possible paths when the deathclaw quest is active or finished. Before activating the deathclaw quest the line reads “Don't mention it.”

The ice box of father Malcolm (containing his trade stock) doesn't spawn a warning when trying to open it (it only says locked). When trying to open it (lockpick or crowbar) it starts immediately combat. Which is not optimal, normally the mod either spawns a warning first, or it's not a problem to loot. So opening the ice box should open Malcolm's barter screen or trigger a warning.

Crash when trying to open the fridge at the Crater. Instruction 004a5e7c at referenced memory 42202e20. http://www.filedropper.com/slot269fridgecrash. This save is right after solving the Crater quest. I paid Clark 1000. And the fridge can't be opened (the character goes through the motion, but nothing happens). Then I reported to Nicol, got the XP and then tried to open the fridge again, at that point the game crashed as described.
Now it gets weird again. I tested the save above, and it crashed (same thing). I then reached the same spot with another character and it crashed as described above. Then I thought that this new save is much better to submit (it's before solving the Crater quest). So I overwrote Slot269. Then I changed my mind (2 saves are better than one!), and I saved the new game on Slot272, and restored Slot269 via copy and paste (and overwrite). From that point on Slot269 worked (...). I deleted Slot269 completely and copied the save fresh into the savegame folder. Still the same, the character can open the fridge without problems and it doesn't crash after reporting to Nicol.
The other savegame (http://www.filedropper.com/slot272fridgecrash2) still crashes, but it started to show new messages, after Slot269 started to work. It changed to: Instruction 004a5e7c at referenced memory 72658173. And once it crashed when trying to open the fridge before reporting back to Nicol: Instruction 004a5e7c at referenced memory 72702e61.
So Slot269 probably won't crash any more, but Slot272 still should. If not you may try to reproduce the Crater quest from scratch (mind you the important thing for the crash seems to be to chose the 1000 caps option).
Other points: It only crashes when choosing the 1000 caps option (as described above) and (normally) after reporting back to Nicol. When I select the speech option, the fridge only wouldn't open. When I kill Clark I can open the fridge without problem. And in all 3 cases the fridge opens when I leave the map, allow the mod to clear the bar (from the remaining survivors: Loiz and/or guests) and then return. So it's probably this in between state of “Clark removed but not gone yet” that causes the problem with the fridge.
(Note: However, I just found the save from which I created Slot269. http://www.filedropper.com/slot273fridgecrash3. And it should crash as described for Slot269, same message etc. I'm adding all three in case you want to test the whole story.)

I played the Crater quest and it is possible to blow up the distiller (needs dynamite or repair) without Clark becoming hostile. As both options are rather an investment, couldn't it make sense that destroying the distiller without being detected by Clark (dynamite, repair), reduces the cost to get him out of town from 1000 to 750 or even 500 caps? As the value of the bar is diminished? Also destroying the distiller via dynamite could cancel his special booze offer (if that makes sense?). However, I like the idea that destroying the distiller sneakily has an effect on the Crater quest.

Not sure if the bug regarding companions' level ups has been figured out yet or not. But I triggered it again. http://www.filedropper.com/slot274upgradefail & http://www.filedropper.com/slot276upgradefail2. In both saves the HP of Keri (101/91) and Mutt (95/85) are wrong.
I created both saves from the following save http://www.filedropper.com/slot275upgradefailsetup.
I've tested it 5 times and it seems to be consistent. What I did is: I took the “elevation” hit, then accepted to fight the floater. I usually hit for 3 AP, then run for 8 AP. However to speed up the fight I also hit for 4 AP (aimed shots at the head), ran for 7 AP and took the one hit from the floater (however this can end in death). When I knock the floater to the ground I don't run but use my AP for aimed shots at the eyes. What happened (in the first 3 cases the level ups failed to register) was that I knocked the floater unconscious (“lifeless” message) and then killed him in that state. Pressed space and entered dialogue with Cristos. Each time I did that, Keri and Mutt failed to level up. Once the level up registered (when I skipped the Cristos dialogue very quickly), but when I saved the game, and then reloaded it, they were back to their previous HP (91 and 85). The weird thing was I did get the level ups to register during one fight (when I only hit and run, i.e. 3 AP hit, run with 8 AP), so I thought it was killing the floater in an unconscious state that causes the problem. However, I tried it two more times (with hit & run only) to get the level up to register and both times they didn't or reverted after a save/reload. At this point, I would say the fight always seems to mess up the level ups. And I'm actually puzzled how I got them to register that one time. I played the fight again (next day, some other fresh starts, new games, other saves, reboot etc. in between) and both level ups registered. I reloaded the save, played the fight again and they didn't. (?). It's either the reload (playing it a second time), or something else (I sometimes miss-clicked in the dialogue with Cristos (betting instead fighting), and had to end the dialogue, but it seems unlikely that's the difference maker.)
P.S. If you want to recreate from Slot275 you may put more points in unarmed, which makes it more likely to knock the floater unconscious.
P.S.S. Please don't give the floater more AP. It's tough enough as it is. Psycho seems to do almost nothing against it. You may only consider to give it (one?) more AP so that character needs 10 AP + Bonus move, and not only 9 AP + Bonus move, for the hit & run strategy. However, I feel needing high AG and/or drug use to get it, plus a perk (Bonus move), is investment enough.
P.S.S.S And I've continued playing this time. And after the next two level ups (a normal one, then I used Here & Now), Keri and Mutt levelled up to 101 & 95 HP. So they basically skipped a level up, because of the bug.

I said that during the 3rd Sanchez quest (meeting with raiders) one gets karma for the Raiders (+5 per kill, no matter who or what killed them). Which could be removed, as it adds up (35 in total). However, one also gets +5 karma for every Mexican killed (even if by a raider), which is definitely an error imo.

During the trade route quest for New Hope. I get from Helen: +10 karma. Or 400 caps and -10 karma. When I report back to Johny I get the XP, 800 caps and another +10 karma. Couldn't it make sense to scratch that last 10 karma, and make the only karma gain during the dialogue with Helen? I assume the +10 from Johny is for reporting back and not simply taking the 400 caps and then do nothing, but I don't think it works that well, as every player would want to pick up the XP, so it's always +400 caps and 0 karma, but it should be arguably +400 and -10 karma. Alternatively, reporting back to Johny may only give +5 karma, but I like 0 better, unless Helen gives +5. Or 400 caps and -10?

Helen's Dialogue adopts to the upgraded city, but the player's reply doesn't. See http://www.filedropper.com/ups. It's the dialogue path about “surrounding settlements” and then “life so far away from others”. You could simply replace the “sorry” with “happy” or “glad”.

When I do the caravan attack for Damian and he takes a liking to me (female). He is coming onto me when I return. I can reject but he gets angry. The weird thing is I can then go to Vex and drop Damian's name, although Damain never mentioned Vex (i.e. the flag sets automatically when reporting back, but it's not mentioned in the “rejection dialogue”). Perhaps add a line to his angry text after I rejected him like “...Now fuck off and stay away from me, cunt. [Add:] And if you want any more work. Well, too bad, bitch, I've got nothing for you. But you could try Vex in AQ, he may have something for a/that frigid little ass like/of yours [he grins unpleasantly]. Or: But you could try shifting that frigid little ass of yours to Vex in Albuquerque, find out how he likes it [he grins at you].

When I go to the meeting instead of Frederyk. I get 5 karma for every of Nicol's men killed. The weird thing is I also get those 15 karma points when running off the map and not killing any of them. This may be on purpose (to make Frederyk's quest line karma positive), but I would have liked this “fleeing option” to make the Frederyk quest line somewhat manageable with negative karma (aka with Gabriel) and dodging those 15 karma (by running away) would have been a neat little trick to do so. Besides getting 15 karma for fleeing seems a bit silly.
However, this is not a big deal, but if it's easy to fix I wouldn't mind to do so.
(P.S. The 15 karma also apply when Nicol's men are killed by cops. So again it's unavoidable karma, as with the 3rd Sanchez quest.)


Crazy Stuff (findings that seemed interesting at first, but are probably not)

I mentioned in my last post the option to avoid town hostility (by missing an attack and have companions do the killing) and that perhaps companion kills need to trigger town hostility. I had another interesting observation. When I give the drugs to Jeffrey and he becomes hostile, I can run off the map (which ends combat) and as I never hit anyone I triggered no hostility and can return and talk to Jeffrey as if nothing happened. And I actually really like this option to run away from an error and only take a few hits for it (rather than just scum-save all the time). However, during that flight, Gabriel killed a cop. Which would have cancelled this option if companion kills would trigger town hostility.
Another issue could be the Crater quest, when Mutt runs after a guest and kills him in front of a cop. May also cause problems when companion kills would trigger the cops. Especially Mutt is going very aggressively after people (probably as his setting is “charge”, but changing that setting makes melee characters too passive.)
It also seems as if companions can trigger hostility (Gabriel hit a guest in the Rodriguez casino by accident, and all guests turned hostile towards him, after which Keri & Mutt started to attack the guests too) but it doesn't trigger towards the player.
There may be more cases and eventually the companion trick to kill people without triggering town hostility may be the lesser of two evils, really.
P.S. Actually it's a FO2 problem. The same thing works in the RP Mod (I just tested it). So there may be not much the mod can do about it (or, arguably, should).

I killed Lucy in the bar without triggering hostility (companion kills). (http://www.filedropper.com/slot278lucynecklace2). And picked up the necklace from her body, but Nicol wouldn't take it (she doesn't trigger when it's taken off Lucy's body). I then dropped it on the street and entered the villa. Attempted to pick the safe with PE 10 and the game crashed: Instruction 004a5e7c at referenced memory 00000e29. I then kept the necklace in my inventory and just tried to open the wall-safe, another crash: Instruction 004a5e7c at referenced memory 00000eca. Then I put the necklace on Lucy's dead body, tried to open the wall-safe and the character went through the animation but nothing happened. (I'm getting somewhere). Then I travelled the world until the bodies disappeared, the necklace remained behind (but I can't pick it up as it's covered by the blood stain, damn [snaps fingers]). However, now I can open the wall-safe, get the necklace and bring it to Nicol to finish the quest (and technically keep the one remaining at the bar if I could pick it up).
I did this while testing if Nicol reacts to a dead Lucy, as she does to a dead Marvin. However, I'm not sure if this is in any way or form interesting. Just a point of curiosity, really.

Then I had two observations regarding deaths.
The necklace quest: Killing Lucy normally results in Sedit hostility, and Nicol warned of not to kill Lucy. However, if I manage to kill her without triggering town hostility (companion trick), Nicol won't mention it. http://www.filedropper.com/slot270lucynecklace. This is a bit odd, as it works with Marvin (i.e. Nicol knows when Marvin is dead or alive). If I kill Marvin before the quest, I can't get the money (the quest enters a state of limbo and becomes unsolvable), and if I kill him (in any way) during the quest (including the companion trick), Nicol gets angry. http://www.filedropper.com/slot268marvindead (this is in Lost Town, Marvin is alive, debt quest is not active yet).
However, a player messing with the mod (killing quest characters at random and then forcing quests into an unsolvable state), is probably not really an issue (I thought at first killing Marvin could be covered, but keeping track of all quest characters and have quests adopt to it (by getting cancelled or skipping to the next quest in line), just for the case of a player going rampage, is probably more work than it's worth it)). Also killing Lucy always triggers town hostility (normally), or it doesn't allow to return the necklace (it must be stolen), so Nicol not reacting to Lucy's death is not a big deal either really. The only important thing is probably that Marvin never runs into the deathclaws until the player doesn't need him any more (as it is the case). I just found it interesting that Nicol can tell if Marvin is dead the moment the quest is active, no matter how he died.

http://www.filedropper.com/slot271blocked2. I submitted this before but this time it's during the Crater quest. A bar guest stands in the door and won't let me through (no push option). This happens fairly regularly as a consequence of “reluctant combat”, (i.e. when I try to kill Clark in the distiller room, while trying to avoid to get into a fight with the other people at the bar (to avoid the karma loss). But it is not a big deal. I can restart combat, land one hit, get the guest to run (which opens the exit), and then end combat again (seems to work rather smoothly). I can also walk up to them before ending combat and they continue to run. Both options only have the risk that companions continue the killing of guests. However, trying solve the quest by killing Clark, but without killing guests (and taking the -10 karma from each) is probably a dumb idea anyway. (There is a 1000 caps and a speech option for that).

http://www.filedropper.com/slot277movebug. This is a weird one. Talk to Frederyk, and go to the meeting (2/2/1/1). Then hit 2/1. And watch Nicol leave. Normally, she disappears, combat starts and then the caravan man runs inside and gets close.
What I managed in this save is that the caravan man starts walking before Nicol is gone, and then stops in the door blocking the escape path (which is not good). I do get this consistently, but you may need to go through the scenario once, reload the save and do the same thing again, before it occurs. In another case I needed to do other stuff first (talk to Kevin etc.). So far I always got this while I was experimenting with the fight (which is very tough actually, perhaps less HP (about 50?) or leather jackets (8 AC instead 15)?). However, once I got it, it always triggered, even with different characters. And I only got rid of it by rebooting my PC. (This really seems to be a thing. Certain bugs, once triggered, become permanent until a reboot.) Here is a screenshot of the men blocking the door (http://www.filedropper.com/doorblock), I think normally he should be standing in front of me at that point.
Another time the man of the caravan would walk up to me, I was then able to run out of the door and from then on, all the men from the caravan would only move (follow me) but never attack. (I had this a couple of times too, but I couldn't reproduce it from Slot277 yet. (It almost seems as if the selected dialogue lines during the Nicol dialogue have an influence on the bug? As unlikely as that seems).
However, it seems as if something goes wrong during the cutscene in which Nicol is leaving. Not sure if this is really a problem or just an oddity. A reboot seems to clean it up.
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Daemon

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Post Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:07 pm

Re: BUGS Swarming our position! Request suppressing fire

Muttie wrote:How do I steal the necklace when Lucy is at home? I tried AG10 (drugs) and sneak 97% but she spots me each and every time I try to open the wall-safe. Is there any other way?
Stealing the necklace in the bar is not difficult (or to crack the safe when she is gone). But when I kidnap David and then get the necklace quest, Nicol tells me that Lucy won't leave the villa any more (and as the quest ends in tears, that never changes again). And I see no chance to get to the wall safe, when she is in the room, without her detecting me.

It should be possible to do it by sneaking. But it's probably set too hard. I can't tell you exact limit of sneak skill needed because there's a skill roll. So with 97% sneak skill you may or may not succeed.

Muttie wrote:what influences the items traders are offering? I'm thinking of items like the Tragic cards (Mrs. Stapleton), First Aid Book (Alexa, father Malcolm), Geiger counter (Salem) etc. Is it a matter of time (i.e. they have two set of trade items they switch around each restock?), randomness, and/or the character's level and/or stats? Or a mixture of it?

Items have percentage change to restock. Some 100 % (so they always restock), some less. I wrote little bit more about restocking here - viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1036#p7001
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Muttie

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Post Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:52 pm

Re: BUGS Swarming our position! Request suppressing fire

Daemon wrote:It should be possible to do it by sneaking. But it's probably set too hard. I can't tell you exact limit of sneak skill needed because there's a skill roll. So with 97% sneak skill you may or may not succeed.

It may be too hard then, I must have tried it about 10 times (with 97% sneak, some may have been with 80%, but still), and she detects me almost without fail. Only once or twice I was able to manipulate the safe (attempt to open with PE) but got always spotted when I then tried to access the safe after unlocking it (i.e. it basically needs to pass the test twice). I'm also pretty sure I varied the methods of opening (hand icon, PE, lockpick). It seems too hard, and as I pointed out, it really doesn't have to be. Stealing the necklace from the villa is much less attractive than stealing it in the bar (which works fairly regularly with 8% steal, btw). Perhaps Lucy needs to pay much less attention to the servant dusting her room. :D

Edit: Well, except for the 125 caps in the safe. But, 20% to 30% sneak for an easy 125 caps shouldn't be problematic, I think (?). Especially considering that access to the villa is rarely free (and if it is Lucy may not even be at home), and that there is one scenario (Vex before necklace) that leaves no choice but to sneak (as far as I can tell).
The one oddity may be breaking into the wall-safe directly after dating her, but she may be distracted for different reasons then.
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Muttie

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Post Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:21 pm

Re: BUGS Swarming our position! Request suppressing fire

Murder quest (suggestions & thoughts):
When George is dead (killed by Alexa) I believe there is no way to cross out (solve) the murder quest. (Only reporting back to him seems to cross out the quest. (And taking the 2000 XP from Alexa cancels the option to report back to George, even if killing Alexa before she can kill him.)
So the quest stays permanently open the moment George is dead, or one ended the last quest for Alexa (aka took the XP).
Even confronting Alexa and talking her into suicide, after George was killed by her, made no difference. Even father Farley had still the same “investigate options” about Maria in his dialogue (which, btw, could be cancelled after confronting Alexa. As it does after solving the quest by reporting back to George).
To get it off the to do list, could it be possible to set two triggers for the quest (Crossed out (solved): report back to George after Alexa is dead.) and (Remove quest (unsolved): both George and Alexa are dead.). Does that make sense? I mean confronting Alexa is technically solving it. (Reporting back to George is more about the XP than solving really?). Or is it important for the ending that the quest stays open (i.e. to let the player know the case has never been “properly” solved)?

Also I've read that Alexa must commit suicide for a good ending, is that true? And is that a good ending for Rat Hole? Or for George?
Reading the endings (viewtopic.php?f=12&t=820) it seems as if Rat Hole is mostly influenced by the status of Julian & Alexa. While the murder case influences the ending for George (and apparently only on/off). If that is the case, couldn't the quest be solved by confronting Alexa even if George is dead (no XP, but crossed out/solved (or at least removed) despite George being dead), and have the status of George (dead/alive) & the case (solved/unsolved), influence his ending (i.e. on (grieving)/off (no mentioning), as that seems to be the only difference atm, and perhaps even add a third ending (solved & George is dead) "You solved the case but it brought no comfort"). Or is there more to it? Like killing Alexa with Julian but not solving the case? (Although does that make a difference to Julian? In game Julian assumes Leonard escaped, so he may give up Rat Hole anyway and become a raider in that case, too?)

Side-note: Does it make sense to add the option of talking to father Farley after solving the case? i.e. after Alexa is dead (all three clues assembled, plus Leonard's death revealed) the “investigate maria” options are still available and could be replaced with something like telling him the solution and he replies: “You solved it, after all those years, but it may be too little too late. I'm afraid there is no hope for this town.”
I originally thought father Farley could substitute George (should he be dead) to solve the murder quest, but that probably makes no sense (regarding the ending) (and some characters can antagonize Farley). However, Farley reacting to the solving of the case may be a nice touch.

Frederyk's Dream (error?):
During the Frederyk's Dream quest is an oddity. The first few quests kind of flow into each other, and when ending the meeting quest I immediately get the next one. During this dialogue is the option to improve the payment from 400 to 600 caps for -1 Karma. When I then label the informer and report back to Frederyk he again gives me immediately the next quest. The weird thing is if I then tell him “pay me first” for -1 karma I get the previously arranged 400 or 600 caps. But if I only agree to “escort the informer” I get nothing (?!), only the 300 for the escort job after reporting back. Is that on purpose i.e. Frederyk forgets to pay the player for the second quest, unless reminded? Or an oversight?

Minor point:
When I approach the raiders with the business proposal to lie to Frederyk, and then return later, Damian greets me as a “hot businesswoman” so the game makes a note of that event. However, when I then ask to join, and want to change my mind, Damian won't let me. The minor issue is that his argument is “now that you know our hideout I can't let you go”. This makes normally sense, but not after the businesswoman part (which includes entering and leaving the hideout). And as the game keep tracks of that encounter it could also adjust that line by Damian, perhaps to: “Oh, our little [businesswoman/man] has a change of heart. Doesn't want to ride with the big bad riders after all. Who do you think you are? You think you can walk in and out of here and waste my time with your bullshit. Fuck you, time to die! [but not before we had some fun]”
All the other replies (after the business proposal) seem OK as far as I can tell.

Another Question:
Whenever I went to the meeting with Nicol, instead of Frederyk. Nicol would walk out, and then the man would come in, walk up close and combat starts. So the exit was always open and allowed me to run out of the building and flee.
Recently, it happened sometimes that the man stopped in the doorway and blocked the exit. At first I thought that that was the bug, and that the exit is supposed to be open. However, after thinking about it, and watching a play-through from 2017, I'm not so sure any more. So could you tell me, please, which scenario is the correct one?
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Post Fri May 04, 2018 12:00 am

Re: BUGS Swarming our position! Request suppressing fire

XP Bug:
During the quest to convince either Valery or Abby (at Corath), there is an option to use Gabriel. When doing so and returning to Valery, the usual dialogue options give 800 XP. The new one (“did she say who did it”), however, doesn't (no XP, and probably no caps either). But it ends the dialogue all the same. After which there is the standard “you shouldn't come here any more” rebuttal (i.e. no chance to get back to the reward section). I assume that the new dialogue option shouldn't end the reward dialogue with Valery, but return to the two options of (“take the caps” or “don't take the caps”). http://www.filedropper.com/slot280valeryxpbug. Or it needs to trigger the XP and caps for the quest. Btw, this rather cruel method to convince Abby does not seem to deduct karma, which it could (perhaps -5 or -10).

Bug?
This is a weird one, and it looks like a bug, but I'm not sure. I'm in Corath. I get the quest from Ademar to free Richie. I do so. Then I report back (get 500 caps). Then I get the miners quest and fail it (massacre). Then I get an invitation to Nestor (Richie free) and Uncle (massacre). However, if I do the same thing, but DO NOT report back to Ademar, before causing the massacre at the mine, Ademar has a dialogue path telling me Nestor can't risk to do anything. And I only get an invite to Uncle.
The odd thing is that this sounds plausible, but triggers only in this very specific case: (1: Ademar gave me the Richie quest and 2: doing the mine before reporting back to Ademar).
If I get the quest from Cedrick. Free Richie, then I can talk to Ademar, or do the mine quest first. Either way I always get an invite to Nestor.
http://www.filedropper.com/slot281richieuncle (Only quest active is by Cedrick, Richie freed, before the mine. You can now cause the massacre, or talk to Ademar first. Always the same outcome. Invite by Nestor.)
http://www.filedropper.com/slot282richienestor (Only quest active is by Ademar, Richie freed, before the mine. You can now cause the massacre, or talk to Ademar first and then do the mine. If you report back first: Invite by Nestor. If you do the massacre first, then report to Ademar: No invite by Nestor.)
As far as I can tell, this is the only oddity. Any other scenario of free/massacre and kill/pacified allows to get the challenge quest for both sides.
OR: the bug is Slot281RichieUncle. Where the massacre should also cancel the invitation by Nestor (same reason). (i.e. whenever I do the mine (& fail it) without being asked to do so by Ademar it cancels the option to challenge Uncle for Nestor even if Richie has been freed).
(Note: Bacially Ademar reacts as if I killed Richie & caused the massacre, i.e. solved both quests in favour of Uncle. The only odd thing is that it has a specific dialogue by Ademar “starting about Richie, the massacre, followed by two versions: invite or no invite.)

Dialogue error?
After the miner uprising (without quest by Cedrick) one can approach him and reply “I only wanted to help the miners” to which he replies “It couldn't have ended any other way...bloodbath...Uncle has no need for someone to start suspecting him of inciting miners' rebellion...” As the player did incite the uprising (without being asked to) shouldn't that be “...Uncle has no need for someone connecting him to a miners' rebellion...”. As I understand it the player isn't accusing or suspecting Uncle at this point. The player only wanted to help the miners and caused a rebellion/bloodbath. And as he can't be trusted, (too goodie-goodie), Cedrick sends the player away (like: your secret is safe with me, but don't hang around here, associating us with what you did). I think the player may know that Uncle was behind it (may have learned it during the Ritchie quest), and suspect or accuse him, but still the player is not really doing that in the dialogue path. That only happens when getting the quest by Cedrick, do the quest by causing the rebellion, then return, and tell him “I don't want to have anything to do with people like you who care so little about the life's of the miners etc.” Then it's a bit more of accusing Uncle.
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Daemon

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Post Fri May 11, 2018 1:50 pm

Re: BUGS Swarming our position! Request suppressing fire

Muttie wrote:Also I've read that Alexa must commit suicide for a good ending, is that true? And is that a good ending for Rat Hole? Or for George?

What do you call good ending for Rat Hole? When comes to Julian vs Alexa, ending depends just on whether they live or not. And for George, ending depends on whether he's alive, whether Alexa is dead and whether he learned the truth.

Muttie wrote:The weird thing is if I then tell him “pay me first” for -1 karma I get the previously arranged 400 or 600 caps. But if I only agree to “escort the informer” I get nothing (?!), only the 300 for the escort job after reporting back. Is that on purpose i.e. Frederyk forgets to pay the player for the second quest, unless reminded?

Yes, this is on purpose, he forgets. If the player plays as too good or too polite person to ask for the money, they didn't get the reward :-)

Muttie wrote:Recently, it happened sometimes that the man stopped in the doorway and blocked the exit. At first I thought that that was the bug, and that the exit is supposed to be open. However, after thinking about it, and watching a play-through from 2017, I'm not so sure any more. So could you tell me, please, which scenario is the correct one?

He's supposed to block the doorway. Did he go through the doorway closer to you? If so, I have no idea how that could happen. That doesn't make sense. If he would start the combat sooner, before entering the doorway, that would be understandable bug.
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Muttie

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Post Sun May 20, 2018 1:36 pm

Re: BUGS Swarming our position! Request suppressing fire

Thanks, for the replies that helps me to understand the game better.

Regarding the “meeting instead of Frederyk”. What happened to me was that the man of the caravan didn't stop but kept walking until bumping into me (the player stands in a direct line to the door) and then combat starts (so the man is directly in my face). This happened so regularly that I thought it was normal. At one point I started to play the fight several times (testing how powerful I have to be to win it: me alone (10mm SMG) (easy peasy), me (Eagle) with Mutt and Keri (shotgun) (50-50 chance), that's why I suggested to change something, like leather jackets instead of armour). During those tests I started to see the man stop in the door. And I thought that was the bug. However, from that point on I had both happening and I couldn't tell any more. I messed around a little but in one session I couldn't get him to stop in the door. In another session I couldn't get him to walk up to me. Sounds a bit like the Fallout 1 Moat guard who also fails to stop and actually walks off the map (unless you stop him by talking to him). Not sure if this is something similar. The only odd behaviour I encountered was that sometimes when running out of the building the men of the caravan would “get stuck” and skip their turn (i.e. they stopped attacking), but that required to run into a very specific spot at the door it seemed (perhaps they assumed the door to be blocked?). Normally they would follow me outside and keep shooting (and they are very, very accurate!). Running away in a straight line does not work (no, sir, it does not!).
As a side note: if the guard does not block the door, the character has the option to run away (?!) and I developed an entire strategy to do so (zigzag through the ruins on your left towards the north exit). There is also the option to draw the cops of Sedit into the fight. (Who finish off the man of the caravans in no time). So even if this is a bug, it is actually improving the game with new options imo :). The only oddity, as I reported, is that if I run off the map I get 15 karma as if I killed the men (and I suggested 0 karma per man, instead 5). Otherwise the “bug” works perfectly fine (quest finishes, map clears etc.). I guess it's a nice bug for once :).
Here is a screenshot: http://www.filedropper.com/oiyouarenotsupposedtobethere
And the save (http://www.filedropper.com/slot04doorway) from which I've created it by: Talk to Frederyk, go there immediately and use 1/2 with Nicol. But I can't promise that it is consistent.

And my monthly dump on your precious time :). Please take your time, and feel good about your work. It's a great mod, and it's very stable. I'm just finding stuff because I literally take the game apart (testing).

Blaster's Keeper Bug?
When I'm about to fight Blaster in Corath, I have the option to talk to Blaster's Keeper (http://www.filedropper.com/slot283blasterskeeper). And I suspect there is something wrong. You can check all the following from the save (may have to get the hint from Vodka).
When I talk to him the first time I get 3 options (normal, 71% speech and hint by Vodka) but it all results in the same (?). Then after that I get the option to have him help me by sedating Blaster. The options are “please help” and “offering a reward”. The point is both seems to require 91% speech. Isn't that wrong? Shouldn't it be: “please help” (91% speech) and “offering a reward” (having money, like giving him 2000 or 2500 caps, the reward by Uncle is 3000)?
I mean why two options if both are 91% speech? Or do I need more than 6000 caps in my inventory for the reward option?
Also having the option to get a weak Blaster with caps (a lot of caps) may make this quest more accessible (Keri can beat a weak Blaster).

Silly One
And I had a silly one :). During the Blaster fight, Blaster would turn around and flee (which appears to be normal, Chadwick can flee too). However, this allowed me to end combat. And the madness starts :). I can now talk to Lawteller, who asks me who is going to fight (select one and the game crashes). I can also talk to companions, and ask them to barter with me (ending up with all kinds of weapons inside the ring.) I then shot Blaster with a Desert Eagle (no one minds). Then I tried some grenades and threw them at the people around the ring, triggering town hostility. They couldn't get to me though. So I killed Blaster, which ended combat, the screen went black, all the towns folk rushed in to kill me, I continued by pressing space until they've done so (aka “killed me”), then I got transported to the desert, I'm alive again! :) And when I returned to Corath, everyone still hated and attacked me (Zombie!).
This is not really a bug, it's just weird and funny. http://www.filedropper.com/slot284oddfight (this save is in combat, and it should be possible to end it and do all of the above.)

Wild Paradise/AQ
When I have two companions I can only get one to use the establishment. This was not a problem with Lystra & Keri (as Lystra drops out after the first time) but it is with Gabriel & Keri which makes it impossible to get Keri some treatment (except when telling Gabriel to wait). This dialogue window is also overfilled. 6 options: One girl, two girl, three girls, madame chow, companion, a room instead. If all options are listed the last option (room) is outside the window. Perhaps rearrange to 5 options: Girl, Several girls (next window: two, three girls, perhaps I rather have only one), madame chow, companion (next window if more than one: Gabriel/Keri/Lystra), a room. I think that should fit better. At the moment it is only possible to get the “room” line if exhausting the “madame chow” option first.

Note on Corath ring fights
When I fight Chadwick in the ring I get 13 caps (the earthly possessions of the loser). But when a companion fights him (Keri or Gabriel) they don't. Not a big deal, but I've noticed that they do when beating Cedrick (36 caps, Desert Eagle, Stimpaks) or Bill (Brass Knuckles, 9 caps). And the 13 caps from Chadwick could appear in their inventory, too.

Dialogue Error/Dead End
When Francis sends me to talk to Suzan, it can happen that her dialogue option becomes unavailable. This happens when having sex with her.
http://www.filedropper.com/slot285deadend. You may test from this save. Talk to her, and you may say “Bye” as often as you want and always continue the conversation (as it should be). You may also say “Francis send me” then say “Bye” and resume later. Then use the same save and have sex with her. You can still say “Bye” and resume the conversation as often as you want. But the moment you say “Francis send me” and then say “Bye” there is no option to get back in the dialogue even if one has not gotten the assailant description yet. And the murder quest hits a dead end. So the trigger to cancel the dialogue needs to be set differently (i.e. “receiving the description”, not “Francis send me”).

Suzan, oh, Suzan
There is a slight issue with Suzan, as I can get the quest to lure her to Chadwick. Then I can convince Chadwick to show Francis his necklace (or kill him in the ring). And doing this does not cancel the option to lure Suzan (that's the error, as at this point it should probably trigger her reward dialogue (Geiger counter) when talking to her). In fact I can tell her to go see him and she ends up dead in Chadwick's home. No one reacts to it, and I can still hire her when talking to Wanda (ghost sex!? bit of a rip off, isn't it?). :) http://www.filedropper.com/slot286suzanghost (in this save the option is open (not reported to Francis yet) and Chadwick is already in jail).
Perhaps Suzan's reward dialogue could be triggered the moment Chadwick is dead or in jail. And not when reporting back to Francis (as I think it is atm?).

Comment on Corath murder quest
Are you aware that there is a minor bug when picking up the cigarettes during the murder quest in Corath? After being allowed to enter the crime scene, one has to find the cigarettes, which triggers a text window message “this could be a clue” when moving the cursor over it. However it is possible to pick up the cigarettes so quickly (fast click and moving off the item quickly) that the message can't trigger. And without the message, one can't report back to Francis. However, it's not a problem as the Lucky Atom should appear in one's inventory (single item) and after handling them in any way (looking at them or dropping them etc.) they trigger the window message and disappear. So it's not a dead end, it only loses the cigarettes.
Anyway, just in case someone says that they can't finish the quest this may be the reason.

Corath Grave-Robber
http://www.filedropper.com/slot287waiting. In this save, I cannot wait at the Gravedigger any more. The option is there, screen fades, but no time passes (same time as before). Also waiting by other means (book or wasteland), does not trigger the grave robber to appear any more.
I tried to reproduce it, and I was able to. I waited at the grave digger, told the robber to leave (the “OK, but be careful” option). I then left to the world map, travelled a little, returned to Uncle's Yard, waited at the grave digger, the robber appeared and left (I did nothing), I read the book, waited at the gravedigger again, and then the scenario as above occurred (robber won't appear and waiting does not progress time).
Can confirm, same method as before, same result. http://www.filedropper.com/slot288waitingsetup (if you want to try).
I tried the same again, except I read the book, instead leaving to the world map. In that case the robber kept appearing, but when leaving the graveyard he would only walk to the wall and then stand and wait there (reading the book cleared it up, though). So apparently it's leaving to the world map that triggers something/a bug (perhaps in combination with reading the book?).

Wanda's quest
There are two minor errors in the Wanda quest.
First talking Valery into suicide does not remove the quests (Wanda's & Valery's) and there is no reaction by Wanda and Abby. Having a reaction by both (which could also remove the quests) may be nice (For example: “I'm afraid you came too late, I knew it had to end that way. If only she had left him earlier. We could have made a fortune. Oh, well I hope you do understand that I can't pay you for this.” and Abby: “My poor sister, and all because of that horrible man. We didn't get on well, but she deserved better.”).
Second, the option to have “Gabriel convince Abby” is not removed when paying Bill 500, killing Bill in the ring (noteworthy as both instances remove the option to talk to Abby or to hire her for a week) and Valery's suicide (as it's reporting back to Wanda (after convincing Valery) that clears up the Gabriel option, and it's impossible once Valery is dead, which also means that I can't treat Gabriel at the brothel any more as the option is always the Abby one). I guess it would be best if the Gabriel option is removed just as the Abby speech option and the option to hire her for a week (i.e. the moment Bill is gone or dead). It is kind of intriguing that it's possible to use the Gabriel option and trigger the suicide, which is the ultimate evil (Abby traumatized & Valery dead), but I'm not sure if this rather obscure option is worth the work (probably not). Also when I traumatize Abby (can talk to Wanda, reacts normal, i.e. Abby is gone etc.), and then talk to Valery (with Bill being gone) and have her work for Wanda, the game assumes all to be normal (Wanda reacts, 800 XP, two sister offer etc.) but Abby is at Valery's place.

Suggestion
There are two pieces of Dynamite in the Mine of Corath. Couldn't it be possible to use it during the miners' strike to cave in the area with the 5 miners leading the strike (“mining accident”). Similar to the Radscorpion cave in FO1 or the Rat King in FO2 RP Mod. Unless Dynamite can already be used this way and I'm just not aware of it? I've tried it but other than having them run into exploding dynamite, after starting combat, it did nothing.

Suggestion
When learning from Vodka that Uncle and Nicol are working close together it may trigger a special dialogue option with either Nicol or Kevin in Sedit, revealing a bit more about the iron ore trade between Uncle and Sedit. I also missed a reaction by Nicol when Uncle has been defeated/killed (or victorious?).

Suggestion
After finishing father Malcolm's last holy quest, he offers an elevation hit to celebrate. That hit could be for free, rather than costing 500 caps.

Suggestion
It seems as if there is only a speech option with Blaster's Keeper to deal with Blaster. I've tried a few things but nothing worked (?). Not even blowing up Blaster's Keeper with dynamite has an effect. I might be missing something, but what about: The character can sneak (85%?) and lockpick Blaster's cell (75%?), at which point the cell opens, combat starts, Blaster storms out and the town/Nestor's guards have to fight him. After that fight. The player faces Ademar in the ring.
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Muttie

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Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:42 pm

Post Sun May 20, 2018 10:49 pm

Re: BUGS Swarming our position! Request suppressing fire

Addition
While cleaning up I've stumbled over another minor one. http://www.filedropper.com/slot289fightitems. In this save I've decided to fight Bill in the ring. This is after Vodka defeated Cedrick in the ring. The save is before the fight versus Bill. And after defeating him I did not only get Bill's items (Knuckles and 9 caps) but also Cedrick's (Eagle, 2 Stimpaks, 20 .44er, and 36 caps). (You can also let Keri fight Bill, same result). Optimally those items should be in Vodka's inventory at this point, if possible.
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