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BUGS Swarming our position! Request suppressing fire

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Posts: 41

Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:42 pm

Post Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:29 pm

Re: BUGS Swarming our position! Request suppressing fire

A few more minor points:

It's really silly banging on about karma, but the four gecko hunts with the tribe seem to give about 145 karma (36+36+48+15+10) (that's: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, report back to Gurgan). Is this correct?
I feel a bit awkward bringing this up repeatedly as there very well may be a system I'm simply not fully comprehending. I'm just baffled. (I mean talking Valery in Corath into suicide is only -30 karma? Blackmailing Alexa is -100. But going hunting makes up for both of it. That does seem off to me.)
I only tested this with one character (female, CH8) and there could be something like a CH multiplier, but still...
Killing a tribal-hunter is -10 karma (during the second hunt), which means if I kill two of them and then run off the map I end up with +16 karma when reporting back to Gurgan. That can't be right.
Personally I wouldn't award any karma for gecko hunting (the first three hunts), or at least not that much, but perhaps only 3+3+4+15+10).

Side note: I suspected that this could have been a concept to prevent the player from not caring about the hunters (and letting them die) (like 12 karma per surviving hunter) but it doesn't seem to be the case. However, as a result I had the idea of having the number of Gecko Pelts regulate it. Like 1 golden gecko pelt per surviving hunter, instead of a fixed amount. This would mean more pelts for the first and second hunt, unless it's “number of hunter minus one” for hunt one and two. This would set an incentive to care about the hunters and to protect them. May need a comment by Gurgan to make the player aware of it like: “But, (alas/by our ancestors), few hunters return, and the (yield?) was poor, I can only give you (number) pelts.”
I would include this incentive to protect the hunters. But it would remove the freedom to kill two of them at the end of each hunt. Or too casually stand back and let them take the damage, until only one is still alive. At which point one has to help. I don't think there is ever any reason to let a hunt fail on purpose? It doesn't allow to work for Paul, and only when the attack on the hospital is about to start has one the option to switch sides (talking to Falber). So, the incentive to protect the hunters (i.e. to continue hunting) is already there. Varying the number of pelts would only strengthen it, I think. And I don't think it would become too tough, either.

When killing doctor Moore, and then leaving before looting his body, and then not helping Alexa with her attack, causes Moore's 13 caps to be covered by the blood stain and they can't be picked up. (http://www.filedropper.com/slot251moore). Not a big deal, but for convenience a solution like with Vex's head (like: don't remove Moore's body until the player entered and left South Side once more), or transferring Moore's inventory to the desk when he dies (if that is possible) could be considered. Mostly for those that are bothered by such inaccessible items.
It is also possible to administer the poison, wait till he dies, and then loot the body, as the South Side doesn't seem to set to “hostile” before leaving the map. But I don't think this is as intended (i.e. the player is supposed to leave in a hurry, not to wait around for Moore to drop dead, and then to loot his body, although it's possible).
If participating in the fight/helping Alexa, and not looting the bodies, and then return later, all the items not yet picked up are under blood stains, too. However in that scenario there is the option to loot the bodies, right after the fight, and before causing them to disappear by leaving the map. (Note: Interestingly enough, in this case (when helping/fighting with Alexa) Moore's body is not removed. That only happens when staying back at Alexa's place, in which case all of Julian's men are replaced by blood stains (without items), including doctor Moore's (with items).)

In the save below (Slot252) I've killed Alexa shortly before she attempts to kill George (which doesn't save him, btw. I assume his sickness kills him in that case). However, I still get free drinks despite Alexa being dead. Which, seems a bit weird? Or am I considered a friend of the whole town now? Which does not entirely add up, as I don't become one by wiping out both gangs (correct?). At least, it does not trigger when I kill Alexa before collecting the XP (for the fight against Julian) (e.g. when I kill Alexa before ending combat).
Perhaps set the condition for free drinks in the North Side bar to “helped Alexa in fight & received XP for it” or “when Julian & Alexa are both dead”. The last may need a dialogue from the bartender. “You know what, buddy, after all you've did for this Rat Hole, I'll let you drink for free. What'd ya say to that?” “Thanks, pal” “What shall it be then” etc.
This isn't necessary, but it would smooth it a little.

After sending Katrin to purchase drugs, I managed to get her reappear before the hour is over. So she walks around as a ghost (floater) but I can't talk to her or see her. This save (http://www.filedropper.com/slot252katrininvisible), shows her as invisible (wait up to 10 seconds for her floater to appear). And from this save (http://www.filedropper.com/slot253katrintrigger) it can be reproduced by: talking to her, give her 10 caps, then send her shopping, leave to the world map (or go to South Side) and immediately re-enter North Side. She should be wandering around as a ghost then, only spawning floaters from time to time (and I thought it's her taking the drugs...).

Also when killing Alexa and waiting an hour, Katrin switches between (“all is lost, Alexa's dead”) and tripping (her happy drug floaters) (which is oddly funny sometimes). This is not a big deal. But shouldn't the realization of Alexa's death set in when she's off the drugs again, rather than switching back and forth? (this can be checked with slot252 (wait for an hour), or 254 (set her up, kill Alexa, then check)). However, it can work either way as drugs can cause irrational behaviour.

And another point: When I send Katrin shopping, and then kill Alexa before collecting my stuff, her “lamenting” also blocks the option to get the items off her. I think it can be argued if this is correct. She could have spend all the caps and drugs once she heard the news of Alexa's death (purchase is gone), or she could stay under drugs, hand over the purchase, and when the drugs wear off, realize what happened and start the (Alexa is dead) floater. This is a game-design decision (which falls in the point above, i.e. at which point should Katrin realize that Alexa is dead).
(http://www.filedropper.com/slot254katrinpurchase) In this save Katrin has already purchased the 2 Stimpaks. You can now either talk to her (and pick them up), or talk to Alexa first, have her commit suicide, and then check that Katrin becomes unresponsive (Stimpaks/300 caps are gone). (Note: killing her or stealing doesn't work either, the Stimpaks are not in her inventory).

This is an odd one. It's right after the battle has ended. When I now approach Alexa, I get 2000 XP. If I run off the map, and talk to her in her store I only get 1500 XP. Are those 500 XP for triggering her “visit” to George? Or are the 2000 XP the error, as Julian's last quest only gives 1500 XP?

And I thought about the 5mm AP ammo which stops working against a high DT, like power armour.
Here is a zipped open office document in which I've made some calculations: http://www.filedropper.com/apammo.
It also includes the numbers for a special rule idea for AP ammo which may work (at least for 5mm): “AP ammo treats any DT greater than 8 as 8”. (like there is only so much AP hits an armour's DT can absorb). This is not a perfect solution but from a game-design point of view a special rule for AP ammo has less impact than changing weapon damages or DT of armours (and the 5mm ammo itself is actually fine). This won't help .44 FMJ or 10mm AP which are both not useful (but I've added two examples of what happens when changing their ammo's DR mod). But that's another issue (and not that pressing as both ammo types are early game mostly).
Another note: if AP ammo is rare, it doesn't have to be balanced, other than by the question “how much damage is it suppose to deal?”, i.e. rarity can balance, too, and consequently you could just overpower AP ammo. Like giving it “2/1”.


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Post Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:00 am

Re: BUGS Swarming our position! Request suppressing fire

Muttie wrote:And I thought about the 5mm AP ammo which stops working against a high DT, like power armour.
Here is a zipped open office document in which I've made some calculations: http://www.filedropper.com/apammo.
It also includes the numbers for a special rule idea for AP ammo which may work (at least for 5mm): “AP ammo treats any DT greater than 8 as 8”. (like there is only so much AP hits an armour's DT can absorb). This is not a perfect solution but from a game-design point of view a special rule for AP ammo has less impact than changing weapon damages or DT of armours (and the 5mm ammo itself is actually fine). This won't help .44 FMJ or 10mm AP which are both not useful (but I've added two examples of what happens when changing their ammo's DR mod). But that's another issue (and not that pressing as both ammo types are early game mostly).
Another note: if AP ammo is rare, it doesn't have to be balanced, other than by the question “how much damage is it suppose to deal?”, i.e. rarity can balance, too, and consequently you could just overpower AP ammo. Like giving it “2/1”.

The default damage calculation in FO2 is flawed, and setting AP ammo's damage mod to 1/1 (what Resurrection did) only helps a bit IMO.
There are at least three different major approaches trying to address the problem:
1. Magnus' F2WR, which overhauls the whole ammo and armor attributes using default formula.
2. Haenlomal's YAAM, which changes ammo's DR mod to DT mod and has an over-penetration calculation (DR -10% for each point of DT over-penetration).
3. Glovz's damage calculation change, which changes X and Y values of damage mod to DR/DT divisors.

Of course, one can make new damage formula much more easily now with sfall hook script, instead of writing tons of ASM like YAAM and Glovz's.



Posts: 41

Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:42 pm

Post Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:48 pm

Re: BUGS Swarming our position! Request suppressing fire

NovaRain wrote:The default damage calculation in FO2 is flawed, and setting AP ammo's damage mod to 1/1 (what Resurrection did) only helps a bit IMO.There are at least three different major approaches trying to address the problem:

I agree. But I had the slight Impression that the Resurrection Team wanted to use their own version. And when looking at it, it occured to me that it almost can be made to work with a few more tweaks. But, yes, the actual problem is that the original concept is flawed. And perhaps they'll have to overhaul it eventually. But I also think that Resurrection can still get away with it without having to rewrite the whole thing.

Muttie wrote:After solving the protection money quest (by stealing the money) and the attack on Alexa (without murder quest), I can still talk to the local bartender, and ask for a drink (the overpriced option has been already triggered), but the dialogue won't offer me the option to actually buy one (which I normally can, even after realizing it's overpriced or after killing Alexa. (http://www.filedropper.com/slot244barpurchase). The only thing preventing a purchase, as far as I know, should be when I got the protection money through force (ST or speech), in which case he wouldn't talk to me again).

Another possibility (and correct me if I'm wrong) could be that this save has no money :roll:. No wonder I couldn't purchase anything :oops:. Still, it could add a “Come back when you can pay, punk.” when trying to purchase without money.

And: http://www.filedropper.com/slot256questwipe. When talking to Julian, to end the last of his quests, the quest “get the protection money...” disappears from the status list. This also happens when the murder quest is active, solved and when getting the protection money through strength (http://www.filedropper.com/slot257questwipe2), (i.e. at first I thought this is an indicator if I can return to the bar or not, but no).

Then there is a weird dialogue bug/connection in the “Big O” stargate special encounter. In reply to O'Neall's comment that he is an explorer, one can say: “Wow, that's really a cool occupation, isn't it! You get to see weird stuff, meet new people...” to which he replies “If you think that it's awesome, then you're either a lunatic or you have never killed anybody.”
That feels a bit abrupt as if the player's comment should include something about fighting, that O'Neall reacts to. Like: “Wow, that's really a cool occupation, isn't it! You get to see weird stuff, meet new people...excitement, adventure...sounds awesome.”
Otherwise the connection from Explorer to meeting new people to killing them is technically there but also a bit sudden and not entirely logical to be honest. I've hardly seen Stargate though, so I can't say how “logical” that actually is. But “normally” exploration should not “always” result in killing people.
However, you can also make it even more extreme and turn it into a joke. And O'Neall could reply: “If you think that it's awesome, then you're either a lunatic or you have never faced the fact that each time we explore the (universe?/and bring peace to it?/trying to communicate?) we end up killing someone. (Have you (ever) thought about that? Or) Perhaps you just don't care!”). However, I really don't know Stargate well enough and can't tell if that would be an accurate joke or not.



Posts: 41

Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:42 pm

Post Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:59 pm

Re: BUGS Swarming our position! Request suppressing fire

Another “distance not triggering combat” bug, but this one is problematic. (http://www.filedropper.com/slot258gabrielseditbar). When talking to the bartender I get three options: pay 1000, sacrifice/fight Gabriel or defend him (the “try and I'll beat you up” option). The problematic one is the defend option as it doesn't trigger combat. It just ends the dialogue and nothing happens. I can talk to the bartender again, buy services, leave the map, return, talk to Kevin etc. and nothing happens. But the moment I step behind the counter, combat starts. (The usual scenario of combat requiring to get close to a character). However in this case it allows to avoid the Gabriel situation (pay or fight) completely, by never stepping behind the counter. Which is not a big sacrifice, as one has no reason (as far as I know) to go there (once looted), (i.e. in all other scenarios, so far, one always had a reason to get closer to the character or a guard and eventually trigger combat, but not this time). Consequently, it becomes an exploit, allowing to skip the Gabriel/Sedit bar scenario completely. Perhaps the “defend” option needs to set another person in the bar hostile (like a cop next to the door, or dialogue with the bartender etc.).



Posts: 41

Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:42 pm

Post Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:08 am

Re: BUGS Swarming our position! Request suppressing fire

Found an error message in the dialogue with Johny (Crimson Caravan/Sedit). See the screenshot. (http://www.filedropper.com/johnydialouge). It's about him joining a caravan and the error message should be something like a “return to previous menu” option.

And during the first quest (the meeting for Frederyk). Kevin's dialogue says he'll pay 150 caps, but when I reported back to him I received 200 caps. Did I get a bonus, is it an order thing or is the text a typo? I've tested it again with a different character (same CH though?) and assume that it's a typo. May check from http://www.filedropper.com/slot266kevincaps.

During the Rodriguez quest to face the raiders, I did get 35 points of karma (5 per kill), which put me below -50 and consequently Gabriel left me after that fight. This may need looking into as the Rodriguez quest line working against Gabriel is not optimal. And this is not similar to the first quest were I can solve it peacefully (positive karma) or kill the drunk (negative karma), as in the showdown with the raiders, there is no choice, only combat, (not even staying in the back does work, as it seems I get the points no matter who kills the raiders). I think it may be better if that fight would be karma neutral (i.e. the quest and killing those raiders). Especially as it's not easy to get the karma down to -50, other than skipping New Hope quests. I had to come up with a strategy (graves, ripping up letter etc.) to balance the karma gain from New Hope (I could have gotten more out of the necklace quest perhaps, but, still, it is a bit of a squeeze to pick up Gabriel quickly, and if then going directly in the Rodriguez quest (which can make sense) and running into a chunk of 35 points can be a game stopper. This Karma is also not necessary if accompanied by Lystra (e.g. before that quest one has an option and after it she refuses to help anyway). So I would suggest to consider making these Raiders Karma neutral (i.e. it's dealings among gangsters, and killing gangsters for gangsters, doesn't have to be a good deed).
Also if this quest gives +35 Karma, there is basically not much quest line choice in Sedit other than going with Nicol (I think?). Everything else is positive for the most part. EDIT: Well, Lost Town has several negative Options, but still...

The (male) dialogue with Rene at Falcon's Flight doesn't adjust by having or not having a Talisman. In both cases it says [show it to him]. Not a big deal but in other cases (female) there was a variation from “show” to “describe”, which was a nice touch.

There is also a slight dialogue bug with Lucy (http://www.filedropper.com/slot259lucybug). I had sex with her, returned via rope, (that's where the save is). Use waiting for love, then scroll the screen away from her room, return to it (to get her to spawn), then talk to her. Her dialogue is the one after getting the necklace from her but in this save the quest hasn't been activated yet. I continued playing and the necklace quest works without issues from this save. And I think this scenario only triggers the wrong dialogue. I believe she should say “What are you doing here? You shouldn't be here, leave.” which seems to be here response when appearing in her room uninvited after having started an affair with her. And as she does in this scenario, too, if talking to her a second time.
Btw, the dialogue line could be adjusted to “What are you doing here? Meet me in the bar if you must.” Especially when the affair can be continued (kissing her good-bye). However, I'm not sure yet how quickly she returns to the bar (could be mentioned “I'll be there (in a few days/next evening/a week?), just give me some time.”), and there seem to be scenarios that cancel her visits (necklace stolen, son kidnapped (& not returned yet) and husband killed?). Perhaps alter her response based on these events.“What are you doing here? You shouldn't be here, leave.” if there is no getting together again/won't visit the bar at the moment and “What are you doing here? You really shouldn't. Meet me in the bar, if you must. I'll be there, just give me some time.” if still available.

I also start to understand the mod better. I said previously that not having money should give a comment when attempting to purchase in the Rat Hole bar. The mod doesn't do that throughout, and I'm not sure why? (Avoiding a bug?) I do understand that a bribe option (psycho for John) shouldn't be offered when the player has no Psycho in inventory (to avoid spoilers) but known traders/bartenders should have a “you have no money” comment and healers a “you're not hurt” comment (companions may only be offered when actually hurt, which makes sense, but doing the same with the player-character can be confusing (for example, I've reported it as a bug erroneously) or (I thought doctor Moore won't treat me any more for some reason). Unless there is a good reason, this could be changed.

I've reported that Lystra doesn't react to the quest to kill one of William's women. If continuing the quest line, she then also doesn't object to the entire kidnapping quest (as she should). And it really needs to be implemented as it is possible to pick her up later, leave her behind when taking care of William's women, then pick her up again etc. And she should not go along with the whole kidnapping. She basically needs to trigger to almost every deed during that quest (accepting the job by Vex (warning), taking the boy (hostile), killing the nanny (leave), accepting to deliver the boy's ear (hostile), and the botched exchange (hostile).)
Lystra also objects to killing the ghouls, but does participate in the fight. Perhaps set her to hostile when starting to shot at the Falcon's Flight ghouls (“I won't let you hurt innocent people!”) as if they were imperial city dwellers (i.e. if she objects to the quest she should also object to the fight.) Otherwise it's a bit too simple to avoid her objections (e.g. it is enough to remove her from the party before reporting back to Sanchez, take the quest, get her back into the group, then kill the ghouls with her help. Which may not be as intended.)

Companion kills don't trigger hostility
I have found a few weird situations, apparently caused by the mod not registering companion kills and/or hits that missed or did no damage as acts that trigger “town hostility” (i.e. an entire place (like Sedit) turning hostile):

First there is (http://www.filedropper.com/slot260nicolefine) in which I've started combat by missing, and then my companions killed all of Nicol's men in the basement before spawning her. Doing it this way no one seems to mind, including Nicol. This is the safe from which I've created it (http://www.filedropper.com/slot261nicolesetup). And I think the important aspect is to start combat without landing a hit and let the companions do all the killing. Also killing Nicol doesn't seem to bother anyone (Kevin, Keri etc.), if done the same way (i.e. start combat by missing). If I do hit her they all turn hostile. (May test from Slot260, but you may need to heal Gabriel first.) From this save I can also start combat by missing her, have Gabriel get killed (combat ends) and then talk to Nicol who says “have you got the money” and my reply is basically “I'm working on it.” :)
I'm not sure how much of a problem this is but this “town hostility” scenario brought up a few points.
For example, perhaps Nicol needs to spawn the moment combat starts in the basement (which she doesn't, it was still the same “enter her room” scenario & dialogue text). Or any fight in the basement needs to trigger Sedit hostility which seems to cancel her spawn.
I was also missing a comment by Kevin when Nicol is dead to hint why no one cares (“You took care of her? Well, don't expect any thanks from me. Just go.” (although this scenario may be a bug and should never occur) and, with the Tyler quest active, “You took care of her? Well, things start to look up now. Give my best to Tyler.”, as in that case Kevin is actually not reacting to her death either :(.
I have also tested how killing Nicol prematurely, effects the Tyler Morrow quest and it actually bugs out, i.e. it can't be finished, as Nicol doesn't register as dead (http://www.filedropper.com/slot265nicolerror). Not sure if you want to prevent the complete basement fight (Kevin/Sedit become hostile when Nicol is killed by companions) or add a line when being given the Tyler quest of “Haven't you heard, she's already gone.” which may then finish the quest or send one to Kevin one more time to settle the deal (and story closure) “Tell Tyler I'm behind him.”, then go back and finish the quest.
You may consider to do something about town hostility when the player-character misses an attack, does no damage or when a companion scores a kill.
At first I thought this isn't that big of a deal but then I thought of a “friendly/pacifist” character who never or rarely fights (which is actually possible if accompanied by Gabriel & Keri). (The fight vs Nicol is not a sure fire thing, but it's possible, and can even be tweaked with combat settings and/or feeding them stimpaks, i.e. playing a medic). Such a character may trigger such scenarios rather regularly (i.e. start a fight by missing and then let the companions do all the work), and perhaps, for such a player-character, companion kills need to trigger town hostility.
I've tested it once more in AQ and it behaved the same. (A missed hit, Keri killed Catherine and after ending combat I could ask Sophie how she feels (...I'm so evil...). If I did hit Catherine, AQ became hostile towards me and citizens would engage in combat on sight.
Interestingly this “hostility triggered by others” seems to work during the Falcon's Flight fight. During which Little Hub turns hostile towards me when a companion (or a Little Hub citizen) kills one of the cops, even if I myself never hit or killed one. (which is another problem actually). But this (“death of a cop” triggers town hostility) could be a possible solution. (May cause problems of it own, though.)

I've messed around a bit and another scenario is killing Mrs. Stapleton. I can get her to start combat (during the first encounter) and then do nothing but have Keri (etc.) burst her down (again no town hostility as I don't do damage). This does draw Little Hub into combat and it seems impossible to end combat before more shots are fired (there may be an option though, see next paragraph). But the death of a companion ends combat as usual, and as I didn't hit or kill anyone (personally), it doesn't trigger any permanent hostility (by Keri or Little Hub) towards me. This trick would allow to trade Mutt for 20 books. Which could actually be worth it... (no restock though).

The following is another scenario, similar to that one of Mrs. Stapleton, but here I've managed to set it up in a way that allows to end combat. http://www.filedropper.com/slot262clarkfigth. In this save all companions are in position and shouldn't be moved (especially Mutt). Provoke Clark into attacking through dialogue (1/1/1/1/2), then walk up to him (between Gabriel & Keri) and trigger him to attack. This way Mutt can't reach Clark and stays in place (blocking the only path). If you now only press space repeatedly, and never hit Clark, no one will become hostile as usual (including Keri), but Gabriel and Keri will beat Clark to death (uii, a sawed off shotgun). Normally this should pull the entire map into combat (as with Mrs. Stapleton) but in this case I can end combat immediately afterwards. Apparently as Mutt blocks the path. If Mutt moves/the path opens, ending combat on this map seems to become rather difficult/impossible (i.e. it pulls all cops and guards on the map relentlessly). I thought this is noteworthy as getting out of combat seems to be the real trick if wanting to exploit this failure to register “town hostility”. As “not triggering town hostility” does not prevent the town from attacking me as long as combat is on.

Another option to end combat is probably to run off the map, but one has to make it without taking too many shots (can be tricky). In other cases it seems to work to create enough of a distance (I think that worked in AQ).
Btw AQ, Lystra can also be duped into fighting the people in Imperial City this way (i.e. start combat by missing). Interestingly, though is that Lystra goes immediately hostile when I'm in the main building in front of advisor Elisa and hold a gun in an active slot. To me this suggests again that there are ways to cause hostility towards an inactive player.
Anyway, I'm not sure how far one can push this (wipe parts of towns without consequence), and it may not be that big deal of a deal as leaving combat can be tricky (fighting in a basement helps), then again a “medic character” may encounter a lot of strange behaviour (especially when triggering combat through dialogue. “It was them! [points finger at companions]”). Not sure, but if there's a simple solution (like during the Falcon's Flight scenario, when the death of a cop triggers town hostility, even if one was never personally involved), it could be fixed, but I would not fix it if it requires to rip too much apart, or may create too many follow up problems (i.e. the Falcon's Flight fight has issues of its own. Like becoming responsible for the cop's death without having fired a single shot “I'm a patsy! They set me up. I shot the ghouls, but I didn't shoot no deputy!” which may be awkward in other fights (dead quarter hospital etc.). Actually it would be enough if companion kills could count (?). Anyway, you know better what is and what isn't possible.

Messing around with the Clark save (slot262) I managed to get a citizen standing in the door, without an option to push him. http://www.filedropper.com/slot267blocked. Funny, I never realized that the push option of NPCs seems to come and go. The mobile ones have a push option when one is close to them (distance toggles it on/off apparently), but some are “stationary” and can't be pushed (like Loiz), not even after they fled from a fight (as in this save). Was never a problem before, though, and this save is rather a mess (product of bugging out the game on purpose).

And a few observations on the Falcon's Flight fight.
This is more feedback than a bug report. Originally I did struggle with this fight, but eventually I've figured it out. The following is more an account of things that proved difficult to find a solution for.
When I started the fight, the cops would come in. Keri will help to kill the ghouls (i.e. she's fine with it). And no one (but the cops in combat armour) turns hostile. But when a cop is killed for any reason then Keri and the people of Little Hub will turn hostile towards me. This is rather odd, as Keri will attack the cops, but once she killed one, she turns against me (even if I never hit or killed one). This was rather confusing in the beginning. In one case I also saw her “dickhead” floater, she then would do nothing, but following me, and once I've ended combat she would start fighting me (this also happened twice in the basement fight against Nicol's men, i.e. sometimes her hostility won't trigger until the end of combat). In the same fight it also happened that the caravan people attacked the cops, and once the cops were dead (and I've ended combat) they would start attacking me.
I even saw people from Little Hub attack the Ghouls once (the patron in the hotel). I'm not entirely sure why this happened (I was not able to reproduce it yet). Little Hub citizens attacking cops occurs fairly regularly though. It only needs a cop to hit a Sedit citizen (and the Assault Rifle sprays a lot). (Note, citizens includes the “cop in metal armour” who would then also attack the “cops in combat armour” once triggered).
Not being allowed to kill a cop and doing this fight the hard way seems very difficult when having companions (who attack cops), or when a stray cop bullet hits a citizen and draws them into combat, as any of them (companion or citizens) killing a cop seems to trigger that “cop has been killed” flag, no matter if I personally ever fired a shot at them.
I'm aware of the Tyler Morrow option. And after a few attempts I also came up with a strategy that worked consistently. (Start in the kitchen which seems far enough not to pull the cops (mind companions), end combat, let Ivet come on her own, kill her, set companions to stay close, take psycho and zigzag around the buildings while running east and off the map (best seems to go down the alley between book store and hotel, and then straight off the map (perhaps through the SE ruins if in need of cover). This way they get not as many shots and there seems to be little risk that the cops hit a citizen, except for a boy in the alley.) (It may work too, to sneak out of the hotel, but my sneak wasn't up to it.) However, doing it the hard way (with guns blazing), seemed rather difficult at first if wanting to avoid the “cop killed” flag.
I also tried sleeping (hiding) on the first floor after killing the ghouls silently, but the cops wouldn't disappear, not even after a week.
A few points that could be contemplated:
First, the behaviour by Keri, e.g. her killing a cop and then blaming me for it (cheers, keri). And a citizen killing a cop and blaming me for it. This is probably the most difficult problem as I had to develop specific strategies to actively prevent this from happening. It's possible, but before realizing that I can kill the ghouls without triggering the cops, it's a bit touch & go (i.e. they would come inside, when I still had to fight the ghouls, join the fight and at that point I have no control over my companions' behaviour, and they may end up killing a cop, instead a ghoul). Also the possibility that citizens can kill a cop does not seem entirely fair (and needs to be calculate into one's escape path). Eventually it's manageable, but there was some frustration up to that point.
Another problem is Keri seems to be hostile when I enter any Sedit map during the 3 months (as Sedit is hostile) (e.g. don't flee to Downtown!). And it seems, that entering Sedit too early cancels the 3 month option altogether. Not a big deal though, but it may catch people unaware. Perhaps Sanchez could mention that “If you return any time before those 3 months (we can't/nothing can) help you any more, comprendo.”
Last, after I saw this oddity once that a citizen of Little Hub attacked the ghouls I thought this could actually become a standard scenario. All people in Little Hub (Demetre) hate mutants and ghouls. And the option to cause a racist outburst in which the people of Little Hub start to attack the ghouls, and the cops protecting them, could be fascinating (and scary). This could be triggered automatically when the cops in combat armour join the fight. Once they do, the animosity of the inhabitants (caravan and citizens) towards ghouls comes forth, and they attack. They may start to spawn some ghoul-hate floaters and attack the cops “for protecting them”. This could be an interesting scenario, but also simplify the whole “who attacks who” scenario (all vs cops). And it could simplify the 3 months scenario by changing it to “If the place was guarded, it is always 3 months, no matter how many cops and ghouls got killed.” I think this could make sense if fighting the cops would always come with an angry mob. One may have incited the outburst, and the police may look for the agitator for 3 months but after that time, one has to face that the ghouls are dead, Demetre and citizens were involved in it, and eventually the matter is put to rest quietly. It was just a dark chapter of Sedit no one talks about. And there is no point in stirring things up again. Despite dead officers. Not sure if this is much better. It would always kill all the cops (loot) and probably cancel the escape scenario (unless it can remain as a specific sneak option, silent kill in the kitchen then sneak out), but it could simplify some of the difficulties one faces (can't kill cops, needs to make sure cops aren't killed, killing ghouls without engaging cops, companion behaviour). However, I'm not an expert and I can't claim to understand the full scope of my idea, and I suspect that there is more to the scenario than I'm aware of. P.S. Could also be an option after talking to Demetre “What do you think about them damn, ghouls?”.
If you want to test:
http://www.filedropper.com/slot264ghoulfightquest (the quest is active in this save)


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Post Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:01 pm

Re: BUGS Swarming our position! Request suppressing fire

Muttie: Thanks for another reports. Even if I don't respond (in the last weeks it was because I was sick) I still making notes of relevant problems in order to fix them in future.

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