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A few game mechanic questions

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Muttie

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Post Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:22 pm

A few game mechanic questions

I already did some research on my own, but the following points I couldn't figure out, and as I'm mostly playing Ressurection atm, I thought I ask them here.
If someone can answer these off the cuff I would appreciate it.

1.) Is Palm Strike +15% critical chance or +20%?
I found both.
+15%: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Unarmed & http://www.nma-fallout.com/threads/fall ... ce.201889/
+20%: Fallout 2 Manual p.93
I do assume the manual is wrong, though.

2.) When I use aimed hits with unarmed or melee, the penalty to hit is only halve compared to using ranged weapons (so aiming at eyes is only -30% hit chance and not -60%). Does that also halve the bonus to the crit chance, or is that still +60% when power-fisting someone in the eyes? Nukapedia only says the bonus is the same as the penalty (http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_Chance), but may mean range weapons only.

3.) On the crit table for man. Are the damage multipliers for groin hits 1,5 (rank 1-4) and 2,0 (rank 5-6), or 1,5 (rank 1-3), 2,0 (rank 4-5) and 3,0 (rank 6).
Nukapedia says both
First version (low damage): http://falloutmods.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_hit_tables
Second version (high damage): http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_Hit

4.) And last Nukapedia says a critical hit that bypasses armour reduces the DT & DR by 80% (http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_Hit under “The Armor-Piercing Effect”, first paragraph) . However, on the internet (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRfnn-RIYHE) Nerd Commando Game Studios said in the comment section „Nope, that's a common misconception - crits ignore Damage Resisrance, not Damage Threshold. Only the Penetrate hidden perk is able to negate threshold. If you wish to test that out - make yourself a 10 luck sniper character with the trainer, give him 10mm SMG and match him against the Enclave patrol.”
So I'm curious who is right.
But especially interested in regard to high end Unarmed attacks (i.e. Piercing Strikes and Kicks) who do have an „Armour-piercing“ effect. Does that effect reduce DT & DR, or only DR? As that would actually make quiet a difference.
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NovaRain

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Post Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:13 pm

Re: A few game mechanic questions

1. It's +20%. sfall fixed the critical chance bonus from special unarmed attacks according to the manual.
2. It's still +60%.
3. The first (lower) version is correct.
4. The "bypass armor" effect reduces both DT and DR, and it cancels the DT reduction effect from weapon penetrate perk or special unarmed attacks (i.e. effects don't stack).
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Muttie

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Post Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:07 pm

Re: A few game mechanic questions

Thanks a lot, I really wasn't expecting to get all four answered. Wow!

Clarification:
4. You said the special-effect of unarmed attacks? Does that mean the "armour-piercing" effect of piercing punch & strike does not work like "bypass armour" or only that it doesn't apply twice?

P.S. Should I edit Nukapedia? Point 2 & 3 could be adjusted. Perhaps even 1? But at least point 3. Or is there an issue like it's a pre-patch or sfall version only etc.?
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NovaRain

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Post Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:31 pm

Re: A few game mechanic questions

Muttie wrote:Thanks a lot, I really wasn't expecting to get all four answered. Wow!
Clarification:
4. You said the special-effect of unarmed attacks? Does that mean the "armour-piercing" effect of piercing punch & strike does not work like "bypass armour" or only that it doesn't apply twice?
P.S. Should I edit Nukapedia? Point 2 & 3 could be adjusted. Perhaps even 1? But at least point 3. Or is there an issue like it's a pre-patch or sfall version only etc.?

Their armor-piercing effect is the same as the weapon penetrate perk, which only reduces DT.
The engine logic is basically like this:
  Code:
...
if ((bypass armor critical) && (damage type != EMP)) {
    target_DT = target_DT * 20 / 100;
    target_DR = target_DR * 20 / 100;
} else {
    if (weapon perk == PERK_weapon_penetrate
        || attack == hit_palm_strike || attack == hit_piercing_strike
        || attack == hit_hook_kick || attack == hit_piercing_kick) {
        target_DT = target_DT * 20 / 100;
    }
    if ((attacker == player) && (has Finesse trait)) {
        target_DR += 30;
    }
}
...

I'm not sure where did the +15% critical chance of palm strike info came from. It's not like Jab that got a mention of changing its critical chance in 1.02d patch.
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Muttie

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Post Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:03 am

Re: A few game mechanic questions

I thought about this for a bit, then I got sick for a couple of days (no relation :P ).

However, these are the changes (in red) I thought about implementing:

1.) As the table already includes “+5% (+10% in 1.02d)” I thought I could add a “+15% (+20% in sfall)” to Palm Strike. And add somewhere the note: “Armour-piercing has the same effect as the Weapon Penetrate ability (DR reduced by 80%).” As it's rather confusing currently, what armour-piercing means (especially as it is later used to explain the bypass armour effect, see below).

2.) Adjust paragraph to:
„An Aimed Shot has a critical chance bonus equal to the chance-to-hit penalty of the targeted body part. (But Aimed Hits (aka close combat attacks), that do halve their chance-to-hit penalty, do not halve their critical chance bonus, which is still the same as in the table below.) In Fallout Tactics, the Science skill also has an effect on critical chance against robotic enemies.”

3.) I would adjust the Groin damage in the table to Damage x 1.5 (lvl 1-4) and then x 2.0 (lvl 5-6). As I assume it's a typo (?) and I might replace “Ignores armor” with “Bypass armor”, to keep the terminology straight.

4.) And I would adjust the “Armour-piercing” chapter as following:
“The (Out: Armor-Piercing) Bypass-Armor Effect
Though the combat message accompanying these critical hits reports the armor being "bypassed", these criticals rarely bypass the target's armor in its entirety. A(Out: n armor-piercing) critical hit (that bypasses the armor) features the Weapon Penetrate effect combined with a DR modifier of 1/5, thus dividing both DT and DR by 5 and (where applicable) rounding the result down. Weapons (and special Unarmed attacks) that already have the Weapon Penetrate perk (aka armor-piercing) do not gain an additional DT-reducing effect.”
Then I would continue to go through the article and replace all “armor-piercing critical effect” with just “bypass armor effect” to avoid the confusion between armour-piercing of special unarmed attacks and the critical effect that ignores armour.
However, it occured to me that the text tries to distinguish between an “armour-piercing critical effect” and an “armour-piercing effect”, and it may be one of those design flaws of rules writing, and the article tries to accommodate it.
Sigh, I have this bad feeling that me editing the text is a borderline act of arrogance and ignorance, like Pete Jackson's Lord of the Ring's Trilogy (aka an elephant in a china-shop).

So it's probably better if you (or anyone really), who is a more experienced Fallout player, could comment on these edit suggestions and if there are any objections, before I go full monkey and press all the buttons.

I think 1 and 2 shouldn't be an issue (even if I'm wrong) as it just adds info and 3 would be a fix but that should be OK as both (damage multiplier and ignores armour) is a typo (I believe).
The point I'm most uncomfortable with is (#4) the switch of terminology from “armour-piercing” to “bypass armour”. Does that make sense, is it accurate, or would that be confusing at one point? Especially from a modder perspective, which is probably the most important one. In game it seems to make more sense to separate between “bypass” (critical – window text) and “armour-piercing” (unarmed effect - manual), but I can't tell if that also makes sense for a modder (i.e. phrasing of the “actual” rules (code?)) and a more experienced player (insight).

Edit: But reading the code snippet it seems to call it a "bypass armour critical", so using that term in the article should make sense, right?

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