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Unobtainable Viable Weapons

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Muttie

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Post Thu May 24, 2018 12:13 am

Re: Unobtainable Viable Weapons

Thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail.
It occurred to me that I could do some research myself (what an unique concept :wink:), and I read through the notes in Jorner's guide.

DoctorSticks wrote:Weapon Long Range - Doubles the effective range of the weapon (the distance at which the range penalty applies).

In Per Jorners Guide for FO2 it says the bonus is (PE-2)*8. Does that mean the same as doubling range? It does seem to list the same weapons.

DoctorSticks wrote:I am not sure about the Sniper Pistol, you could probably do some tests.

Actually I did :) which had me wondering which one is better.
The Sniper Pistol has a lower hit chances than the Sniper Rifle. So it probably doesn't have Long Range.

However, I decided to do some more testing:

Field test (pointing guns for half an hour at a trembling Gregory)
I took the same character (PE 6 and 80% with small guns, big guns and energy weapons) then stood in one place (the doorway to the bedroom) (with no one in between which is apparently -10%) and checked the to hit chance on Gregory (who has no armour I assume).

If a weapon differs from FO2 (Jorner's guide) I underlined) it.

Normal (-25%)
Zip Gun (range 15) 55% (if 7 hexes away: 79%)
Pipe Rifle (range 20) 55% (if 7 hexes away: 79%)
10mm Pistol (range 25) 55% (if 7 hexes away: 79%)
10mm SMG (range 25) 55% (if 7 hexes away: 79%)
Desert Eagle (range 25) 55% (if 7 hexes away: 79%)
Browning Rifle (range 30) 55% (if 7 hexes away: 79%)
Kriss Super V SMG (range 30) 55% (if 7 hexes away: 79%) Penetrate
Apollo Laser Pistol (range 35) 55% (if 7 hexes away: 79%)
Laserpistol (range 35) 55% (if 7 hexes away: 79%)
Ray Gun (range 20) 55% (if 7 hexes away: 79%)
Plasma Cannon (range 20) 55% (if 7 hexes away: 79%)
Light Grenade Launcher (range 40) 55% (if 7 hexes away: 79%)
Heavy Grenade Launcher (range 45) 55% (if 7 hexes away: 79%)
Normal II (-20%)
.223 Pistol (range 30) 60% (if 7 hexes away: 84%)
Accurate I (-25%) (+20%)
14mm Pistol (range 24) 75% (if 7 hexes away: 95%)
Accurate II (-20%) (+20%)
Sawed-off Shotgun (range 7) out of range (if 7 hexes away: 95%)
Shotgun (range 14) 80% (if 7 hexes away: 95%)
Combat Shotgun (range 22) 80% (if 7 hexes away: 95%)
H&K CAWS (range 30) 80% (if 7 hexes away: 95%)
Annihilator Shotgun (range 22) 80% (if 7 hexes away: 95%) Accurate
DKS-501 Pistol (range 40) 80% (if 7 hexes away: 95%) Accurate
Long Range I (-25%) (+32%) (aka (PE-2)*8)
Assault Rife (range 45) 87% (if 7 hexes away: 95%)
Laser Rifle (range 45) 87% (if 7 hexes away: 95%)
Minigun (range 35) 87% (if 7 hexes away: 95%)
Long Range II (-20%) (+32%) (aka (PE-2)*8)
Hunting Rifle (range 40) 92% (if 7 hexes away: 95%)
Sniper Rifle (range 50) 92% (if 7 hexes away: 95%)
Rocket Launcher (range 40) 92% (if 7 hexes away: 95%)
Scope Range (-20%) (+48%) (aka (PE-2)*12) (but 95% is max) (Penalty on 7 hexes or less)
Scoped Hunting Rifle (range 40) 95% (if 7 hexes away: 20%)

I then took another character (PE 7 and 6% on big guns and energy weapons), with more weapons, chose the same place (the doorway to the bedroom) (again with no one in between) and checked the to hit chance on Gregory.

Normal I (-17%)
Laserpistol (range 35) -11%
Plasmapistol (range 20) -11%
Plasmapistol (Ext. Cap.) (range 20) -11%
YK32 Pulse Pistol (range 15) -11%
Light Grenade Launcher (range 40) -11%
Accurate I (-17%) (+20%)
Light Plasma Rifle (range 40) 9% Accurate
Gatling Destroyer (range 40) 9% Accurate
Long Range I (-17%) (+40%) (aka (PE-2)*8)
Gatling Laser (range 40) 29%
Turbo Plasma Rifle (range 35) 29%
Minigun (range 35) 29%
Avenger Minigun (range 40) 29% Long Range
Long Range II (-12%) (+40%) (aka (PE-2)*8)
Anti-material Rifle (range 50) 34% Probably Long Range?

Addition (Throwing):
Shuriken 38%
Throwing Knife 38%

Addition (Melee):
Crowbar 24%
Louisville Slugger 24%
Vex's Knife 24% May have Penetrate? Same as “Little Jesus”?
Stun Baton 44% Accurate. Appears to be the same as the Cattle Prod. May also have Electrical Damage?

Not tested:
M249 SAW
Gatling Plasma (guess: Long Range?)
P95 Plasma Rifle (guess: Long Range?)

That's it.
Not sure how to test for penetrate though? Other than learning to read the hidden rule-book (aka code?).
Anyway, any comments (i.e. errors or omissions I've made in the above)?
Last edited by Muttie on Tue May 29, 2018 10:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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DoctorSticks

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Post Thu May 24, 2018 4:26 am

Re: Unobtainable Viable Weapons

To test for penetrate, pick a weapon, and fire at something like Power Armor. See if the damage you deal is noticeably higher than it should be. Write down the various resistances of the Power Armor to able able to figure out how much damage you should be doing.

I haven't seen any other weapon that looks like it might have it though. I doubt there are any. Seems like Anti-Material should have it, seeing as it looks like the kind of weapon you would use on vehicles, but I am fairly sure it does not.
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Muttie

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Post Fri May 25, 2018 4:13 pm

Re: Unobtainable Viable Weapons

OK, was hoping for something easier :). I might test that one day, but not now. I think it would take me a lot of shots before I get a feel for it, understand the system, and then make comparisons that I could interpreted. Besides I have currently no character that is in a position to do this thoroughly.
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DoctorSticks

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Post Sat May 26, 2018 1:19 am

Re: Unobtainable Viable Weapons

Mega Power Fist (that Savior has) also has penetrate.

It is not really something to worry about. The weapon progression is relatively short anyways, unless you want to mess around with exotic stuff.
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Daemon

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Post Sat May 26, 2018 1:27 pm

Re: Unobtainable Viable Weapons

Here's list of all possible weapon perks - http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Weapon_perk#Weapon_perks
Sniper rifle has Weapon Long Range, DKS-501 pistol has Weapon Accurate and 10 hexes less range than sniper rifle.
Every weapon can have only one perk. Anti-Material rifle has Weapon Long Range so it doesn't have Weapon Penetrate. But it hits hard enough and as with other sniper weapons, you go for critical hits to eyes anyway.
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Muttie

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Post Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:16 pm

Re: Unobtainable Viable Weapons

Addition to weapon abilities:

I did some testing and these are the changes and additions (compared to FO2) that I've found:

Penetrate: Vex's Knife, Shuriken, Kriss Super V SMG, Raygun.
Accurate: Stun Baton, Annihilator Shotgun, DKS-501 Pistol, Light Plasma Rifle, Gatling Destroyer.
Long Range: Avenger Minigun, Anti-material Rifle, P95 Plasma Rifle, Gatling Plasma.

Stun Baton's damage type is probably Electrical (like the Cattle Prod).
The metal armour with nomex-kevlar fibre seems to be 0/0% versus Electrical (just as the metal armour).
And the damage type of the Raygun appears to be Laser.

No ability (as far as I can tell): Zip Gun, Large Knife, Browning Rifle, Light Grenade Launcher, Heavy Grenade Launcher, M249 SAW, Apollo Laser Pistol, Plasma Cannon.

All this is of course prone to human error (aka me). (after all I'm not qualified, I'm just the one doing it :wink:).


However, there were two issues and perhaps someone could educate me:

FIRST:
How do I calculate burst damage? “(Number of shots*hit chance/100)*damage” doesn't seem to be accurate. And consequently I'm not really sure about the M249 SAW, but it doesn't seem to have Penetrate.


SECOND:
I tested the following rifle
Browning Rifle (12 to 22 with 14mm (-50% DR)) vs Combat Armour (5/-10%), if Penetrate (1/-10%)
Either:
Normal 7+17=24/2=12 damage in average
Penetrate 11+21=32/2=16 damage in average
Hits: 9, 15, 16, 12, 9, 17, 15, [27], 16, 8, 8, 14, 9, 9, 10, 12. That's 206 [without crits: 179] in total divided by 16 [without crits: 15] hits equals 12,875 [without crits: 11,933] damage in average

Following are two Browning Rifle tests with the “Living Anatomy” Perk which should add 5 points. But for some reason it doesn't add up in this particular case. (It did with every other weapon I've tested.) Is that a bug or is there a reason for it (DR below 0%, etc.?).

Browning Rifle (12 to 22 with 14mm (-50% DR)) vs Combat Armour (5/-10%), if Penetrate (1/-10%)
Either:
Normal 7+17=24/2=12 damage in average
Penetrate 11+21=32/2=16 damage in average
Hits: 9, 16, 14, 9, 11, 13, 12, 11, 12, 14, 17, 10, 10, 10, 13, 10, 12, 8, 16, 16, 8, 14, 12, 12, 12, 12, 17, 8, 9, 14, 16. That's 377 in total divided by 30 hits equals 12,567 damage in average. (Without Living Anatomy: 7,567.)

Browning Rifle (12 to 22 with 14mm (-50% DR)) vs Power Armour (12/-10%), if Penetrate (2,4/-10%)
Either:
Normal 0+10=10/2=5 damage in average
Penetrate 9,6+19,6=29,2/2=14,6 damage in average
Hits: 7, [42], 15, 9, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, [56], 5, 5, 5, 5, 10, 8, 11, 11, 5, 5, 6, 5, 5, 11, 5, 6, 6, 5, 5. That's 283 [without crits: 185] in total divided by 30 [without crits: 28] hits equals 9,433 [without crits: 6,607] damage in average. (Without Living Anatomy: 1,607.)

It really seems as if Living Anatomy didn't apply? In all other cases it did.
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NovaRain

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Post Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:36 pm

Re: Unobtainable Viable Weapons

You might want to use F2wedit to check weapon settings and tweak them for your testings. When I was verifying the damage calculation in game few years ago, I set mix/max damage of a weapon to the same value to avoid random damage.
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DoctorSticks

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Post Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:19 am

Re: Unobtainable Viable Weapons

Living Anatomy adds 5 damage at the end of the attack, which bypasses all DR. If you are bursting, you won't see that much of a difference, since you are still only getting 5 damage to it. It works best with fast firing single-shot weapons.
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Muttie

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Post Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:17 pm

Re: Unobtainable Viable Weapons

If you have similar questions and are interested here are some articles, I've found:

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_combat
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Burst_Shot
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_Hit

And it may also be noted that in 1.5 the Magneto Laser Pistol is 12-24. (instead 10-22).
And the Sawed-off Shotgun 16-26. (instead 12-24).

NovaRain wrote:You might want to use F2wedit to check weapon settings and tweak them for your testings. When I was verifying the damage calculation in game few years ago, I set mix/max damage of a weapon to the same value to avoid random damage.

Well I did it the dumb way :), again, and it worked fine (the averages were on point, except that one oddity with the Browning Rifle). But I'm done checking for now.

DoctorSticks wrote:Living Anatomy adds 5 damage at the end of the attack, which bypasses all DR. If you are bursting, you won't see that much of a difference, since you are still only getting 5 damage to it. It works best with fast firing single-shot weapons.

All examples for the average Browning damage above are all single shot. And because of the 14mm ammo there is no DR (negated completely) in all three examples.

I only didn't know FO always rounds down, but it makes no difference in this case. And I think I did everything correct otherwise.
All weapons I've tested where close to where they should be (only once was a weapon 2 points off the mark, which may have been bad luck). The only exception really was the Browning Rifle using Living Anatomy. And also only in so far as Living Anatomy apparently didn't apply (?).
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NovaRain

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Post Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:37 am

Re: Unobtainable Viable Weapons

Muttie wrote:The only exception really was the Browning Rifle using Living Anatomy. And also only in so far as Living Anatomy apparently didn't apply (?).

Looks like Browning rifle doesn't have the Weapon Penetrate perk.
Image
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DoctorSticks

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Post Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:11 am

Re: Unobtainable Viable Weapons

No, it definitely does not. It if did, it would be superior to other burst weapons of the same type (Assault Rifle), but as is, it is almost the same. The armor penetration is countered by only firing 5 bullets per burst (vs 8 from Assault Rifle, or 10 from SMG). I was disappointed, because i thought it was a really cool looking rifle, but doesn't perform any better.
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valcik

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Post Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:02 am

Re: Unobtainable Viable Weapons

stamstamstam wrote:I guess the player is not meant to survive Ghoul Patrols, at least not that easily.

Wimpy low EN vault dwellers have to run for their lives, whilst high level hulky brutes can rip through the ghouls without any troubles.
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Muttie

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Post Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:43 pm

Re: Unobtainable Viable Weapons

I think the Browning Rifle is a minor upgrade of the 14mm Pistol. And both are not really bad weapons, because of the ammunition they use. In fact after calculating most single shots damages I would rank the 14mm weapons over shotguns (except the Annihilator) and that is rather high (perhaps the top two weapons of the tier 2 rank).
And as they come into play in Corath, and possibly before fully finishing Sedit (like on a first play-through), I think they are in a good spot.
But it's true what you say about the burst. An Assault Rifle using AP ammo, is better than the 14mm burst. However, the emphasis is on “using AP ammo”, with JHP (unless versus naked) the 14mm burst is better, despite the lower Rate Of Fire.

Naked:
Assault Rifle: 8*15 (JHP) (120) and 8*12 (AP) (96)
10mm SMG: 10*12 (JHP) (120) and 10*8 (AP) (80)
CAWS: 5*20 (100)
Browning Rifle: 5*17 (85)

Leather Jacket/Robes:
Assault Rifle: 8*12 (AP) (96) and 8*10 (JHP) (80)
10mm SMG: 10*9 (JHP) (90) and 10*8 (AP) (80)
Browning Rifle: 5*17 (85)
CAWS: 5*16 (80)

Leather Armour:
Assault Rifle: 8*10 (AP) (80) and 8*8 (JHP) (68)
Browning Rifle: 5*15 (75)
10mm SMG: 10*7 (JHP) (70) and 10*6 (AP) (60)
CAWS: 5*13 (65)

Metal Armour/nomex-kevlar:
Browning Rifle: 5*13 (65)
Assault Rifle: 8*8 (AP) (64) and 8*7 (JHP) (56)
CAWS: 5*11 (55)
10mm SMG: 10*5 (JHP) (50) and 10*3 (AP) (30)

Combat Armour:
Browning Rifle: 5*12 (60)
Assault Rifle: 8*6 (AP) (48) and 8*4 (JHP) (32)
CAWS: 5*9 (45)
10mm SMG: 10*4 (JHP) (40) and 10*2 (AP) (20)

Power Armour:
Browning Rifle: 5*5 (25)
Assault Rifle: 8*3 (JHP) (24) and 8*0 (AP) (0)
CAWS: 5*4 (20)
10mm SMG: 10*1 (JHP) (10) and 10*0 (AP) (0)

Interestingly, the 10mm SMG with JHP (standard) is occasionally (vs. Leather) better than the Assault Rifle using standard JHP.

P.S. All this with the caution that I didn't make a mistake in calculating the damage. :wink:
Last edited by Muttie on Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DoctorSticks

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Post Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:16 pm

Re: Unobtainable Viable Weapons

You have to take damage resistance into account.

Assault Rifle uses 5mm ammo, which has a +35% DR modifier, while the SMG uses 10mm which has a 25% modifier.

So the 192 from Assault rifle gets reduced by 35% (rounds down to 124), while the 170 from SMG gets reduced by 25% (rounds down to 127).

For all the greatness of Fallout, they really messed up damage and armor. Damage Threshold, for example, should apply BEFORE the ammo modifer, not AFTER. So, JHP bullets would be stopped more by it, as it is, the Threshold works in their favor when competing with AP ammo.

For example, a 10mm JHP bullet, when competing with AP (that has the 1/1 modifier, not the crappy 1/2 which makes it useless), benefits from high Damage Threshold, because it gets to double its damage before hand.
Say, an Assault Rifle, which will have 24 average damage with JHP, and only 12 with AP. Against Combat Armor, that reduces the numberes to 19 and 7, respectively. This is highly favorable for JHP, even though it gets further reduced by 75%, while the AP, only by 5%. JHP ends up with roughly 5 damage per bullet, while AP is still around 7 (it rounds down, but you are firing more than one bullet).

for 10mm ammo, this is even worse, because the DR modifier is only 25%, so in that case the 19 damage would only be reduced by 65% (leaving roughly 6-7 damage per bullet), while the AP would be reduced by 15%, leaving roughly 6 damage/bullet.


This is probably why there are so many different weapons and armor mods, to help with this. Personally, I think the burst mode of some of these weapons should be a bit weaker. Fallout of Nevada has the 10mm SMG deal only 6 bullet bursts, and that feels pretty fair.
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Muttie

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Post Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:43 pm

Re: Unobtainable Viable Weapons

Yep, your right I forgot that JHP ammo gives “naked” a DR of either (+20%, +25% or +35%).
I posted:
Naked
Assault Rifle: 8*24 (192) (JHP) But it's actually 8*15 (120) (JHP)
10mm SMG: 10*17 (170) (JHP) But it's actually 10*12 (120) (JHP)
I edited it in.

The rest should be correct, though. 8)

The only thing I'm not sure about is if simply multiplying damage with Rate of Fire is correct. But it should be as all bullets of a burst should “theoretically” be able to hit the target (if close and accurate enough). Although I also read that
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_Hit wrote: A burst attack is critical if its first round hits the intended target AND the attack passes its critical chance roll. Burst weapons often miss many more rounds than a 95% chance to hit would warrant, even at point-blank range. Rounds that hit the wrong target (or miss entirely) never cause critical hits.

So simply multiplying with RoF may not be that accurate really. Nor seems reducing the RoF based on the hit chance. (?)
Still no idea how to figure out the total damage of a burst, to be honest.
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